Conversations -
Questions, Answers, Observations, and a few Kudos
Continued
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1(begins below)
Correspondence from 2004
Page: 1
NOTE:
This first exchange continues my conversation with Clint Clark, who has an
ex-Christian site called "Religion Detoxification." at:
http://www.artdsm.com/religiondetoxification/
Date: 1-8-04
A New Theory: Jesus Was Symbolically The Essenes
Dear David,
I have a new theory about the Jesus Story:
A Story of Remembrance (Symbolically) and the Lesson To Be Learned
"Although I have no solid research to support this theory, I believe
that The Jesus Story, as written in the Gospel of Mark, could have its beginnings
as a symbolic story for the annihilation of the Essenes, the events leading
up to the destruction of Jerusalem, a spiritual ending for Essenes (including
that their philosophy will live on), and how Jerusalem would need to change
in the future after the destruction of Jerusalem."
Your thoughts?
Clint
David's response:
Dear Clint,
You may well be right, but I am more inclined to agree with Freke and Gandy's assessment (in "The Jesus Mysteries") that Jesus was a composite of the old resurrecting god-man Osiris/Dionysus and the mythical Jewish Messiah figure. This was the result of the purposed integration by the Jews into their own culture of the teachings and worldviews of the Hellenized pagan mystery cults that surrounded the Jewish state at that time. Unfortunately, that symbolic union became distorted into a literalistic view of it and all pagan mystic knowledge and activity was brutally eradicated. Joseph Campbell once wrote:
"My favorite definition of religion is 'a misinterpretation of mythology. And the misinterpretation consists of precisely in attributing historical references to symbols which properly are spiritual in their reference."
Best regards,
David
Dave,
That's perfect! Because I'm hoping this theory leads to a conclusion similar to this:
"The Jesus Story is Egyptian. In other words, The Jesus Story has its origin as an Alexandrian (Egyptian) parable using the historical Essenes, their philosophy, their struggles with the Romans, and the destruction of Jerusalem (and how their philosophy would survive their death - which it did). Origen of Alexandria developed the concept for the story. Two bishops of Caesarea in Palestine, Pamphilius and Eusebius Pamphili, later refined the story. And Constantine? He needed a quick way to kill off Arianism and shore up the Nicene Creed. As you can readily see, we have "motive" and "opportunity" in a nutshell for The Jesus Story."
Compared with the culture in Alexandria, the folks in Antioch at this time in history are "backwards hicks" (Saul and the others). Only those trained in a much more progressive Alexandria would have the technology of the healing arts and the philosophical skills to create a Jesus Story.
The biggest stumbling block I have at the moment is Irenaeus of Lyons (115 CE - 202 CE). We are told that he does mention the Gospels and argues for only four versions to be true. I'm hoping that all these versions of the Gospel are NOT Jesus Stories at all, but versions of some other kind of Hebrew philosophy.
Thanks.
Clint
Date: 2-1-04
Subject: who am I?
Hello. I came across your website and was intrigued by what I read, but also deeply disturbed. I know I am alive right now, but to think that when I die, that's it, is almost unbearable. It is a very scary thought. Have I really used religion as a crutch to not face the facts of life and death? Your idea of us being non-existent before we were born, makes a lot of sense to me, and is a little comforting. When I leave this world, I want to be able to say that I lived a full, happy life. If there is something beyond, I will be pleasantly surprised. If there is nothing beyond the grave, I won't know because I won't exist to care about not existing. In a way, it's a funny concept. All my fear of death will mean nothing when I die. I will simply be dead. My conciousness will float away with the rest of my body. And I guess, when we go to sleep, our brain half-shuts down, and we don't remember a thing about sleeping. We just go to bed and wake up the next morning. Living a life of fear, is not a good thing. I'm wondering: Does being an Atheist mean that I don't believe in the possibility of there being a Deity? Just curious because I am unsure of what I believe or don't believe. Your site is very insightful and I wish you all the best in each and every day.
Peace,
H
David's
response:
Hi H,
Thanks for your email. I truly appreciate hearing from those who find my site.
I can certainly sympathize with the frustrations and feelings you expressed,
having gone through it myself. These new ideas are, indeed, disturbing. They
alter our very identity and put us in an unexpected position. If not heaven
and eternal life, then what? Just this? Is this enough? Is there something
more, even if it is not what I was taught?
You questioned yourself if you have been using religion as a crutch to not
face the facts of life and death. That is exactly right in my view. All who
cling to religion do so by paying a price they probably don't know they are
paying. I think Carlos Castaneda's Don Juan said it best when he states that
we can live as slaves or live as warriors - there is no other choice. We were
all in slavery when under the control of religion, and we willingly gave ourselves
to it, even to the point of happily depicting ourselves as helpless and will-less
sheep to be herded by a shepherd.
Atheism, as such, merely states that no supernatural gods or entities can
be shown to exist, therefore we should not accept claims of such until they
can be proven. For some, that is enough and they simply stay in that stance.
For myself, and many with whom I am in contact, this is not really enough.
The universe is too wonderful and too complex and intriguing to simply say,
"Nope, there's nothing else and that's it. I'm going to watch TV."
There are too many records, reports, and personal stories from all over the
world and from all eras of time that suggest that there is something else
"out there" that can be percieved or even interacted with. Some
call it god, or the collective unconscious, or the Tau, but it is quite mysterious
and has nothing at all to do with the "father God person" we were
raised up to believe in as Christians. It may simply be the force of life
itself, concentrated in our DNA and expressed in an explosion of forms across
the worlds. Who knows? But it is something to pursue.
There is a methodology or philosophy of living that is appropriate and powerful
for people in my position. You may also find it useful. It is really just
emerging in terms of being written down and organized. It's sometimes referred
to as the Way of the Sacred Warrior, or the Way of the Peaceful Warrior (Chongyam
Trungpa's, and Dan Millman's terms respectively), and it has given me the
tools I needed to address the fear of annihilation death that you talked about
and to position myself to learn new and strange things. This kind of warrior
has nothing to do with the common use of that term to mean one who fights
other people. This battle is with ourselves and the Unknown.
You said you "want to be able to say I lived a full, happy life,"
and "Living a life of fear is not a good thing." This Way teaches
us how to bear the unbearable and how to use our fright. It speaks of using
our Death as an advisor, asking it to sit down next to us on the mat in order
to assess it and use the perspective we get from it to empower us and focus
our energies where they need to go instead of wasting our wonderful time on
things that drain us or enslave us.
It's pretty powerful medicine, and I recommend it to you. You could start
with the famous books by Castaneda, but they are "sharp cheese",
indeed. A more graspable place to begin, perhaps, is with Dan Millman's book
"The Way of the Peaceful Warrior". Also, a wonderful overview of
these things is found in Robert L. Spencer's "The Craft of the Warrior".
I won't go into much detail here, but I highly recommend this approach for
those who have expressed the concerns and thoughts you have expressed. It
is a way that I am learning and "being" in right now, and I think
it will lead to interesting things in the Unknown - the only place where we
can learn anything new, even if it does frighten us.
The old sorcerer/teacher Don Juan said: "Thus to be a warrior a man has
to be, first of all, and rightfully so, keenly aware of his own death. But
to be concerned with death would force anyone of us to focus on the self and
that would be debilitating. So the next thing one needs to be a warrior is
detachment. The idea of imminent death, instead of becoming an obsession,
becomes an indifference. . . . And thus with an awareness of his death, with
his detachment, and with the power of his decisions a warrior sets his life
in a strategical manner.. . . . We are men and our lot is to learn and to
be hurled into inconceivable new worlds." - [Castaneda, A Separate Reality]
Very best wishes and intentions to you on your journey, H, and I hope you
will let me know how it goes. Please email anytime.
Regards,
David
Subject: religion
David:
I no longer feel that I am an Atheist. I believe there is a source of life inside all of us. Something gave us life and we didn't just come into existence by accident. I don't believe in religion. I think religion is just man's attempt at explaining the unexplainable (God). All the scriptures contradict each other and themselves, so they cannot possibly be written by God. There is truth in all the scriptures, but that truth is based on our own intelligence and understanding of God. Right now I am practicing (as best I can) the meditation of Zen. Meditation is very powerful and if I train myself, I might benefit from it (physically, spiritually and emotionally). I believe everyone is entitled to their belief or lack thereof. To me, God is whatever you perceive God to be because God is the source of life inside all of us and we are merely responding to that presence by following belief systems. The only thing that matters is living in the moment. If I can do that, I need not worry about tomorrow. There is only now.
Take care, Shalom.
H
Date: 2-9-04
Subject: maybe you can help
Hello there-
I am writing to you today as I am struggling with trying to find a way to connect with others in my local area who may be on the same "journey" as I find myself. Three years ago this March, my family relocated to the Seattle area, at which point I decided to take a "6 month sabbatical" from church. This was due mainly to the burnout I experienced having been on staff as Children's Ministry Pastor for the previous 10 years at a church in Southern California. To make a long story short, it is 3 years later, I no longer am willing to attend any church, and I find myself on the verge of leaving Christianity for good. I was "saved" at the age of 5 and am now 42, so this is no easy task. Being in a new city doesn't help, (although if I hadn't moved I'd still be stuck in my "former life") but perhaps there is a way to find others to talk with who are wrestling in the same manner. Do you know of any organizations, or groups, or get-togethers (see, the need for fellowship remains, despite ditching the dogma!) of people who are willing to share their stories? I see so much on-line, but would like to find something local and actually meet up with some people.
Thank you.
L
David's response:
Hi L,
Thanks for your email. I don't know if I can help, but I'll tell you what I can.
When my wife and I left Christianity, we didn't feel the need for being around others for quite a while, as we were doing a lot of reading and we had each other to bounce things off of. When we finally did start exploring, we tried attending with the Ethical Society for a while. That is a humanist, basically atheistic group that meets on Sundays and has fellowship like a church group would. This may be a solution for you if you are ok being around those who have definitely left their beliefs (or never had them to begin with). If you are looking for something less to the non-belief side, you might check out the Universal Unitarian Church. I have never attended one, but I understand that all beliefs or shades of belief or even non-belief are accepted and welcomed there. If you really are wanting a gathering of those who are actually in transition from belief to non-belief, and looking for support, it may be difficult to find in person in any city. The internet is the only place I've found for that.
We have been fortunate, here in Austin, to have recently found a "spiritual group" that is not shallow or locked into some New Age fad, and we have been enjoying the fellowship we have so long lost, but it is a kind of a fluke to have found it. I think as you begin to communicate your thinking to those you select to tell, you may begin to network with some others. I've been surprised to see how many people are actually unhappy with their belief structure and eager to learn new things.
I guess the nice thing about shedding the old belief structures is that we are left much more open to connect with other people of all kinds, rather than just those that nod to a particular dogma or creed. I found it to be a much larger human world out here than in there, and I hope you will find that to be true also.
Best wishes on your journey, and write anytime.
David
Thank you so much for stopping and taking the time to write back to me. I was pretty certain that the on-line stuff was going to have to suffice. I am steering pretty clear of any “churches” in that I really want to be careful to not trade in one false belief for another, and quite frankly some of the things I have heard coming from some “spiritual” groups is as hard to believe as the junk I’ve recently left behind (in fact sounds almost the same)!
Before I let you go- I just wanted to make a couple of comments regarding your website, and feel free to post them if you wish. Your site is incredibly refreshing in that you are clear about what you are and are not, and your tone is so respectful of believers. I tire of the sites that seem so angry and cruel to believers (though at times it may be deserved) since I’ve been a Christian for so many years and all of my loved ones still are. Besides hate never gets us anywhere… Also, your poetry and musings are beautiful and speak truth so eloquently. The other “aha moment” I came upon was reading how your search for truth brought you to this place- and I am now convinced that this is the common thread for the majority of us leaving “the kingdom”. Truth is all there is, and we hunger for it. I have bent my mind into a pretzel for too many years trying to make doctrines make sense, to understand the Bible, and converting others to accept things by faith when it doesn’t add up. I too began realizing something was horribly wrong when I began to actually research the origin of the “Holy Book” that I was basing my entire being on. Reading became my manna and I was astounded at the wealth of information available at the public library!
Getting my head out of the Christian bookstores and into factual research was not only feeding a starved and shriveled place within, but the beginning of opening my eyes to see how I had been horribly duped- scammed for so many years. The anger is subsiding into thoughtfulness, and you are right, I am so amazed at how open I am to humanity and the need to embrace all of mankind. I see now that tolerance is a wonderful thing, not the dirty word that churches have tried to convince me of (“compromising with the world”, “playing around with Satan”, etc. etc.). Although I feel so very lonely in this new place, and at times scared to death with this new thinking, I am also learning to love life and let my mind soar like the un-tethered kite of your poem-higher and higher without having the tug of tradition and “God’s Word says…” holding me down.
Thank you for taking the time to create your website and please keep it going as long as you can. It is an oasis for those of us who struggle in the desert of transition.
Thoughtfully,
L
David's response:
L,
I want to thank you for your heartfelt comments. I created my website for you and those like you who are in the transition. I am especially touched that you found my poems and appreciated them.
I may not get to update the site as often as I'd like to, but I intend to leave it published indefinitely in the hopes it will continue to speak to those who may need it.
A couple of quick comments on what you wrote. Lonely is solveable in the long run. Scary is to be expected and is not necessarily a bad thing. It could even be a very useful thing. Thoughtfulness that leads to tolerance and an embracing of humanity - now that's really a good thing! Sounds like you have made it quite a long way already, and I know you will only find more and more to learn and do in this new "mode". Life really is a lot more rewarding and, well, alive here on the "dark side of the moon".
Very best wishes!
David
[Here's a particularly unusual and interesting letter. I wish I had heard back from this fellow. -DC]
Date: 2-24-04
Subject: questions on disillusionment
Hi
I'm TS, a film maker in the UK. I'm currently putting together and idea which
hopefully will become a documentary and or series of documentaries on the
subject of disillusionment, its effects both good and bad on our society and
the various aspects. Not being trained in psychology or sociology, I'm kind
of feeling my way a bit so would welcome any opinions people have on the subject.I
came across your site and it reminded me of something my Dad went through.
Until I was 16 (I'm now 30) my entire family belonged to the Christadelphian
faith. My Dad, for various reasons lost his faith (I was never that strong
a believer myself).
Below are some of the vague questions I'm asking to begin with and hopefully
through a process of filtering I'll be able to come up with a clear piece
of work that actually says something, be it for teaching purposes or special
interest.
Is disillusionment simply part of being human or is it something we have created?
Is disillusionment nesesary in our development both as individuals and as
a society?
Is disillusionment actively manipulated by the corporate world and the media
and the various governments to enforce a hierachy within our "classless
society"?
What part does religion play?
How much of it has links to the speed at which technology is evolving along
side the speed at which society is evolving?
Is disillusionment a worldwide thing or does it only affect those in more
western cultures and if so why?
These are just a few of the topics i'd like to look at and there are probably
plenty more aspects of the problem that I havn't even got to yet (currently
wading through some text a friend gave me on psychology and a load of stuff
I pulled off the net) so any help or fresh insight would be a great help.
. . . .
Thanks
TS
David's response:
Hi TS,
Wow, what an interesting idea for a documentary! I don't know if I can help on this, but I'll try to give you some thoughts to consider around the questions you posed. My "Joy of Disillusionment" site is specifically geared, as you know, to those who are making the transition out of organized or orthodox religion and so the term "disillusionment" is used quite specifically to address that issue. However, it is a much broader concept that I believe is relevant to our society.
> Is disillusionment simply part of being human or is it something we have created?
I would say that disillusionment can only exist as a response to an illusion. It is different from disappointment, although we can be disappointed when we become disillusioned. I think it can only be considered from the standpoint of it being a human creation that is wielded in response to malfunctioning or impotent illusions or myths.
> Is disillusionment nesesary in our development both as individuals and as a society?
Illusions can be either useful or harmful. Human societies use agreed upon structures to guide its peoples in the way they think and act, or to express a common purpose. Some of these stories or myths are true and some are not. It may be useful and good for citizens of the United States to identify with and even pattern their values around the mythology of the "Old West" with its promotion of an independent character and a hearty relationship to the open landscapes of the pioneer heritage of this country. Does it serve a useful purpose, then, to disillusion someone of this heritage by pointing out the negative costs of the westward expansion in terms of ecological damage and the horrendous injustices wrought on the indigenous population? Perhaps, or perhaps not.
Some myths or illusions are more obviously dysfunctional or dangerous because they are created and maintained with the purpose of control. When this happens, entire populations can be oppressed, as in North Korea. In such cases, disillusionment is a necessary medicine that can heal.
For individuals, disillusionment can be either good or bad. For many, remaining "illusioned" in whatever myth is comforting and provides security is crucial to their well-being and even their sanity. For others, only the truth will serve, even if that truth is dangerous, shocking, or devastating.
> Is disillusionment actively manipulated by the corporate world and the media and the various governments to enforce a hierachy within our "classless society"?
> What part does religion play?
I think that the manipulators of illusion and/or disillusionment are those who have a vested interest in power over populations. This points more toward governments and religions than it does toward the corporate world and media. The former require constraining mechanisms to keep their respective populaces under control. The business world wants power in the form of money, but cares little for the people from whom the money comes. The media world just wants a good story to sell, and will happily settle for either a good illusion or a good disillusionment, as long as it means something new is happening that can be reported and sold.
Considering the governments and religious "authorities," I do believe that one of the primary functions is to maintain the hierarchy that has been established. In most modern societies, that means patriarchal rule and a male god. This goes all the way back to the successful invasion of the Aryan peoples into ancient India, of which event our orthodox western religions are a distant echo.
> How much of it has links to the speed at which technology is evolving along side the speed at which society is evolving?
In the past, it was much easier for those in power to maintain illusions or useful myths in their populaces. The masses did not have enough education or access to recorded information to be able to glimpse how they were being manipulated. With modern communications and technology, this has changed on a fundamental level. The advent of the nodal, non-centralized internet is a very powerful new force that is offering many a new, more objective view - perhaps for the first time. The time is approaching, if not here, when everyone will be have the ability to choose whether to acknowledge or align themselves to any particular illusion or myth, or to reject it.
> Is disillusionment a worldwide thing or does it only affect those in more western cultures and if so why?
Disillusionment (and Illusionment) are human things. It may be more prominent in the western cultures because of the bias toward democratic social structures and the aforementioned technological considerations, but it is not something peculiar to western peoples, in my view.
Those are some of my initial thoughts. I hope that helps in some way. Please feel free to contact me again if I can be of assistance. I'd love to hear how your project progresses!
Best regards,
David
Date: 4-3-04
maybe just being alive and trying to be the best person you can be, and loving and enjoying the ride, loving yourself, just as you are, and being open to wonder, and love, and that which some name "god" but is much bigger than any one religion or anyone's ideas about God...yes, sacred attention, and attention TO the sacred...
Who, what church, shall define the sacred to God, or god? or you, or me?
using religion as a way of conforming ideas, as a way of conforming people, their minds...as a tool of control, isn't that a form of mind control?
Yet being open to wonder, and other's ideas, and to the possibilty of love and wonder and peace, and a just world and trying to contribute to that is no small gift from any one of us to any one of us or to the world...
and wonder names it all....
in peace...
e
David's response:
Hi, "e"
I couldn't agree more. The further I travel on this road the more I understand about connections between all life and the depth, not only of what is unknown to us, but also of our immense untapped potential as human beings. I do think there is something we can call "the Sacred", but it is not to be defined by any of mankind's shallow and self-referent God imagery.
Thank you for your email and your comments! I appreciate hearing from you.
Regards,
David
Date: 4-6-04
Subject: www.exchristian.org
Stumbled across your journey while searching for information to bestow on my sister who constantly informs me of the Hell I am heading for! ("Gee...Is that the Christian sense of Pagan Hell you are referring too?"). I have been able to admit OUT LOUD for a couple years that I do not believe Jesus is a Savior...it is the most enlightening feeling to be able to say it with truth. From my search for answers, I do believe the man quoted from the Nag Hammati (It's been awhile, my memory is faulty on the spelling), may have been the subject of the New Testament Jesus, but he more than likely was a
revolutionist returning from the East with a new thought of Oneness...I find that the Jesus phrase "Love your neighbor" may be the key to peace, but in order to understand our neighbors, (those with other religious points of views), Christian's must think outside their box...I don't see that happening any time soon...too many powerful people using God to their advantage, it's a sad state of affairs we are in. Anybody brave enough to sacrifice their life to prove the differ?
David's response:
Hi D,
Thanks for your comments and for visiting my site. It is a sad state of affairs, but it has been that way for several thousand years since men began to leave their tribal lifestyles. My journey now is to try to find a way to regain some of that lost wisdom and work to build a better spiritual or human consciousness driven world (and have a joyful time along the way!).
Best wishes for you on your journey.
David
Date: 4-28-04
Subject: I love your site
Hi David,
I just wanted to say that I love your website and I appreciate it very much.
I am building a website right now (when I have time) as a memorial to all the family members and friends in California that I have lost over the years to fundamental religion and who now avoid me.
Thanks so much for taking the time to help others.
KH
David's response:
Hi KH,
Thank you for your email. I haven't had any responses on the site for quite a while, and I was beginning to think no one was finding it anymore! I am very gratified if you have found it to be useful and helpful.
It is always hard to know how to deal with the hurt and loss of friends and family who are still "back there" and cannot or will not understand the shifts we have made. I can only say that a certain kind of practiced "detachment" is the only method that helps me not to become mired in those feelings and waste my time and efforts on trying to force a shift on those who just don't want one. It seems much more useful to me to turn my focus onto those who not only agree with me, but who are much farther along the paths I'm on and who challenge and love me for who and where I am. There are many such people out here and it is somehow very compelling and rewarding to begin to cultivate a new family of fellow spirits - one that I have specifically chosen. Perhaps you will also find this to be true.
Please accept my best wishes for you on your journey, and feel free to write anytime.
David
Hi David,
I'm very happy to hear back from you. You never know when a website has been
abandoned or forgotten and sometimes when I write to the owner I never hear
back.
I have not read everything on your site yet but I definitely will.
I like your Shambala quote. I tend to enjoy the ideas of Tibetan Buddhism
now and the wisdom of the Dali Lama. But unfortunately, I have had a difficult
time finding others of like mind in my own community.
Yes it hurts to have lost my loved ones and friends to religion. I am hoping
that the website I am making will be healing for me. . . .
I have had many emails over the past several years with
[book author named].
It is about "post-modern" Christianity. He is the son of the pastor
of a "mega church" (the one that I feel I was rather brainwashed
by in the 1970's; a pioneer in the Jesus Movement). Although he and I disagree
on obvious matters of theology, his church is progressive and incorporates
principles of psychology and recovery. He says he is on the "fanatic
fringe" and is a "black sheep" in the evangelical movement.
. . .
I have had difficulties getting unbrainwashed and have even sought therapy
and feel that I have satisfactorily resolved those issues now. Part of the
problem is the fact that my father has a degree in psychology, which he has
effectively totally thrown away in factor of fundamentalism. It is my dream
to see the gap between Christianity and psychology bridged.
[The
author]
tells me that he is rather worn out from the fight now and has decided to
settle with just making sure his church is progressive enough and helps a
lot of people with recovery and psychology.
Well, I will write more later and you, too, feel free to write me anytime
also.
Best wishes,
KH
David's
response:
Hi KH,
Just thought I'd say that the only way to bridge Christianity and psychology
will be to return Christianity to its proper roots. Those roots are in Gnosticism.
The Literalist Christianity that we all know so well is not the original form
of the religion. That original form was brutally supressed over the centuries
by the Roman Church and we only hear of it as something terrible to avoid
(like Paul's comments in the New Testament). Actually, Paul was a gnostic
himself, and much of what he had to say was altered and forged by the winners
of the war - the literalists.
If you are intrigued or would like to learn more about this, I highly recommend
two books by Freke and Gandy: "The Jesus Mysteries", and "Jesus
and the Lost Goddess".
Christianity will never be neurosis-free until its people are free - free
to think and act for themselves, and to search for and approach the Divine
Other on their own terms. It can only be a personal experience, and it can
never be pinned down into one specific form or format (read: dogmas and creeds).
It's just this chaotic freedom that paternalistic, rigid, literalist Christianity
can never tolerate, and will fight to the end. Fortunately, many more people
these days are just deciding to walk away from the old school and begin to
really live their own lives for the first time.
Have you read much of Jung's works? "Man and His Symbols" is an
excellent intro. I've been working with some Jungian related synchronicity
systems lately, and it is a most interesting phenomena. Another step for me
toward that gnosis (knowledge), perhaps.
Best regards,
David
Hi David,
Very interesting comments about Gnosticism. Yes, I think I agree with you. I have heard of the Jesus Mysteries from www.egodeath.com (Michael Hoffman). I will look into your book tips. Thank you very much.
It seems I have transferred my cognitive dissonance over the issue of salvation to cognitive dissonance over determinism and free will. But I'd much rather live with the latter. I love paradoxes and can live with a pardox comfortably.
Carl Jung was the beginning of me being able to work through my fundamentalist brainwashing. He also was the beginning of the split between my Dad and I. I still can't believe my Dad has a degree in psychology and philosophy and has thrown it all away. Jung carries a very special place in my heart.
Thanks very much for the information. I will find a way to pass it on.
Sincerely,
KH
[NOTE: Well, I knew it had to happen. Someone who just read the Christian book I authored and published in 1994 looked me up and found this site - much, I am certain, to his surprise and disconcertion. I think my long response to him said what I needed to about this issue. I have not heard back from MP as of this site update.
BTW, the contraction "C of C" refers to the "Church of Christ" -DC]
Date: 5-22-04
Comments on your journey from fellow former C of C
Dear David,
I'm just finishing your book Prophecy Fulfilled and wanted to know more about the author so I found this website of yours. It makes me immensely sad that you have chosen to throw your relationship with God away on human philosophy. It's funny because I was absorbed in a lot of the same rational thought and read a lot of the things on your list before I understood the eternal truth. Seems like we just swapped places! Maybe after you see the eventual emptiness in materialism/agnosticism/athiesm/selfism and all those other isms you'll come back to the truth. I was immersed in those philosophies the same way you were immersed in C of C dogma. Either one can screw you up pretty good! Sometimes in the C of C there is such a concern to get doctrine right that friendship and relationship with God is put on the back shelf. I, myself, came to relationship with God thru a ministry of the Church of Christ. (Actually, as I've been reading this book, I had a feeling you might have had a C of C background!)
After reading about your journey to where you are presently, I just had a question about this statement:
> It is the Christian religion that asserts that we are separate from our environment and that the entire world and universe is doomed to destruction at any moment by God. It is the Christian‚s logical view that this Earth does not matter, and neither do our earthly lives. I now beg to differ.
Maybe you need to read Chapter 8 in your book again because this isn't what you once believed. What I got from your book is that our lives right now in the present are VERY important in light of the finished work of Christ in the world and we are here to live out the Law of Christ which is love above all things. There is a freedom and peace and joy that can only be found in knowing that what I do in my everyday life thru love is somehow, seed by seed, making the world a better place for us right now as well as future generations as we build the "new heavens and earth".
As you said yourself, what would faith be if God could be proved empirically? God is still there whether you believe or not. Maybe you just needed a very long break from organized religion. Sounds like you've already had a lifetime full of it in your short life! Don't get too lost in philosophies of men. A book like the Bible could never be written only by the hand of men. Men misunderstand it too much for it to be written by them. Your book proved to me the wonders of God in the harmony of the scriptures. May you continue your search for truth without closing your heart to it.
MP
David's response:
Hi MP,
Thank you for taking the time to look me up and to write. I guess I've been expecting an email like yours for some time, but actually, yours is the first I've received from someone who has actually read my book and who is currently a satisfied believer. You must have been more than a bit surprised when you found my Joy of Disillusionment site after reading "Prophecy Fulfilled".
It may seem to you that I'm making light of something serious to say this, but I have not "thrown away my relationship with God" by taking the position I have. Rather, it is like I have packed it away in a box until I see something that makes me believe that the characters and storyline of the Bible exist in reality outside of that story matrix and that single source. Those characters include the stylized "Daddy God" of the New Testament and the tribal "Warrior God" of the Old. You see, the trouble with Christianity is that it depends solely on that one text source. It's like an inverted pyramid. If the source is true, then all is well, but the source has been shown to me to not be true and that makes the entire Christian structure come crashing down - no matter how elaborate or large it has been made to be.
You are right in perceiving that I was saturated in Christian, particularly Church of Christ, doctrine. I was able to pull away from the C of C's ideas early on, and developed the Preterist interpretation that you read in my book, but I was never able to, or never allowed myself to, pull away from the basic presumptions of Christianity themselves - things like: the Bible is and must be the inspired Word of God; the person of Jesus Christ was God; Christ's sacrifice of life was to save us from sin; etc. When you read my book, it is obvious that the truth and reality of the Bible as God's document is presumed by me from the very first word, and based on that presumption, the very purpose of the book is to try to make the Bible make sense when it did not make sense before.
All I can tell you is that one day, I stepped outside that mental world for the first time and read many things that showed me a far bigger picture than I had ever seen before, and in that picture, the Christian worldview could be seen as just one of many structures that describe the spiritual yearnings and reachings of mankind, and it was not even very original. That was a shock, to see how derivative Christianity's story is from other, older sources. If it is God's inspired word (presuming the kind of God that is described within the text being questioned), then he borrowed a lot of older stuff from the very cultures he seems to disparage throughout the Bible (such as Egyptian, Persian/Assyrian, Pagan Greek, etc.) and passed it off as his own. In order to open my "box" again, I would need some explanations of these things from the source himself.
You said you hope I might come back to the truth after seeing "the eventual emptiness" in all the materialisms and agnostic/atheisms. You obviously found nothing in any other philosophy that made sense to you, after being "absorbed" in them yourself, you said. I titled my site the "Joy" of Disillusionment for a reason. I have not found emptiness, but rather the opposite. I am almost overwhelmed by the information, the beauty, the love, and the wealth of experiences that exist outside the blinders of the Christian (or any other similar orthodox doctrinal) system of thought. I am in a state of joy and wonder that is fed with intellectual and spiritual stimulation. Yes, I said spiritual.
I have travelled some ways on since I wrote most of what is on the Joy site. When I came out of the Christian belief system, I had nowhere else to land except straightforward rationalism. Since then, I've been exploring many other - much older - systems of understanding about what is beyond that rational/physical interpretation of the universe we are in. I can only tell you that I do believe there is some force or entity that is at the center of cause in this universe, but I see the Bible's God as a very simplistic and misleading anthropomorphism of it. I don't know what that Divine or Sacred Other is, and I don't think anyone does, but I have read enough and spoken and learned from enough others to postulate it with some conviction now. The only thing left is to reach out and try to make some kind of actual connection with it. This striving to personally experience the Divine has been man's spiritual process for many thousands of years, and it was Christianity's as well in the beginning. However, it was Christianity, in its codified, legalistic mode after Constantine that completely changed that. Now, under that mode, we are assured that we have been saved by God's grace, but God does not interact with us physically in this world. We are told we are accepted by him, but we should never question the truth of the texts that tell us so. On our own, we are damaged goods, and we must never presume to think we can reach out and actually touch God himself. We are told that he "lives in our hearts" but he only speaks to us through the approved texts.
The gnostics had it right, though. They understood that the Christianity story we have now is just the outer mysteries, the simple myth stories told to those who were only at the beginning of the process of understanding. We have lost what came next - the inner mysteries that explain the allegory and internalize the teachings, because this gnostic "knowing" was a threat to the paternalistic, legalistic Roman church structure and they mercilessly eradicated all who taught these things. Some of this knowledge, however, has been preserved and is available to those who seek something beyond the simple.
Please understand that I would never impugn yours or anyone's right to believe in that simple Christian story or in the Bible texts. I, too, believed in them for much of my life. You were correct in pointing out that I once taught that faith would be undone if there were ever empirical proof of God. Faith as taught in the Bible, however, is never blind faith. It is always faith that is based on trust in a story that is told. That story must be beyond reproach and secure in its truth for the faith to be justified and fulfilled. If that story is not completely true, then the trust has been broken and the faith betrayed. It was discovery of this very breach of truth that makes me disconnect from the Christian story and put any relationship with whatever God is into my little box for some other time when he can be empirically shown or I can connect to him personally. You said "God is still there whether you believe in him or not." I say, great! Let him/she/it show up and I'll gladly interact, but just relying on the biblical texts is utterly insufficient now. The old faith contract has been broken.
One more issue you touched on that I'd like to address is the contention that the Bible could not have been written by men. I, too, once fell for this line of sale until I read several things that helped me to understand the Bible in its original context and how it was used as a tool of power and politics by certain groups of men. Sorry, but the idea that the Bible must be from God because "men misunderstand it too much" is simply silly. Even the modern accepted Christian view of the Bible is a complete "misunderstanding" of it. It wasn't written for our minds or cultures. Those who were immersed in the culture it was written for understood it implicitly, for it was written by their peers and it freely quoted and borrowed from the myths and stories that were as familiar to them as Sleepy Hollow and Star Wars are to us. There are some unbiased scholars today who have burrowed back to those times enough to begin to understand, but our traditional view of the Gospels, for instance, is so entrenched that it is nearly impossible for us to see it as anything else.
Lastly, I'll just say that my heart is not closed to God. If anything, it is ever so much more open. However, it is also not constrained by any dogma, any doctrine, or any particular worldview, even that of the well-meaning Church of Christ minister. I may find my connection to the Divine Other through any of a number of paths from shamanism to Jungian synchronicity, but if I do not ever find that connection, it will not be because I did not try and did not have an utterly open mind and heart. If that were to be so, then I would indeed fall back to a simple rational view of my life and this world and I would continue to find joy and wonder in every moment of this indescribable and mysterious thing called Life.
Thanks again, MP, for writing and for listening to my response here. I do understand your emotional reaction to me and my path, but I also hope you will respect that I'm not doing it as an unconsidered knee-jerk reaction or doing it out of anger, as many confirmed non-believers do. I do hope that you will continue to follow your path of heart, whether it is inside the structure of Christianity or not. In the end, we may even arrive at the same destination, but I've come to believe that the only thing that is truly important is the quality and purpose of the living we live along the way in each and every magical moment.
Regards,
David
Date: 6-6-04
hi
I've read over your site several times; very good job. I too am an ex-christian, but I find it really hard to wrench myself free. I still struggle with much fear, even after "leaving the fold" several years ago. Someone suggested that I am a victim of "neurological sabotage", an idea I am intrigued by.
What I really like about your site is that you are open to other ideas. So many ex-christians and other "free-thinkers" seem to gravitate towards a very materialistic, secular-humanist point of view. Anything outside the lines is verboten, ridiculed even. I too sometimes sojourn in that materialistic outlook, but I find it rather limiting and bleak.
Anyway, I was wondering if you have ever read any works by David Icke. I know, I know, Icke is wild. But some of the things he says resonate with me. Not the reptillian stuff, although you never know............. But the idea that our reality is manipulated and manufactured. I want to explore these ideas, mainly I admit for my own personal pleasure. I have at times been able to question our "reality" and for all too brief periods experienced a freedom from our usual paradigm or reality tunnel.
By the way, I really loved your poem "Old Stories". It really speaks to where I am.
Hope to hear from you-
R
David's
response:
Hi
R,
Thanks for writing! I truly appreciate hearing from you. I totally agree that
many folks who turn away from Christianity, per se, tend to end up in an angry
and depressed place because they have been so severely disappointed as well
as disillusioned. The disillusionment is good for us, but it is easy to get
caught up in the disappointment and just give up to it. Then we are stuck,
as you mentioned, in the materialistic outlook and, perhaps, never take the
chance to seek other information or try other ways of understanding our lives.
I am glad to hear that you've taken the road I have also taken and decided
not to be self-limiting. I've actually travelled on a ways further than where
I was when I wrote most of what is on my site.
I am somewhat familiar with Icke's ideas, mostly from a good friend who has
studied his books more than I have. I don't really buy a lot of his more extreme
ideas myself, but I am very open to understanding alternative histories and
I do think, as Graham Hancock has said, that we humans are a people who have
lost their memory. Some tribal peoples also claim that we Americans are a
people who have lost their spirit, and they mean that literally. I've been
looking into some of the oldest philosophies and paradigms of spirit in existence
and find that much of it is intriguingly practical. Shamanism is alive and
well, and represents, really, the first way humans dealt with the things that
are beyond the rational, ego-driven worldview.
This path involves personal experience of the Divine Other, however you wish
to name it. In western societies, that shamanic approach developed into the
mystery religions and continued into Biblical times as gnosticism. It still
continues today, and is a pathway I am interested in because of its focus
on direct personal experience. That is actually the rational, scientific approach,
after all - experiment and analysis of results, and repeat of what works.
The way I see it now, there are really only three philosophies to follow.
We can retreat at one extreme to pure materialism, represented by the ideas
of existentialism, or on the other pole, we can pursue gnosis, or knowledge
- meaning direct personal knowledge - of things spiritual. The third path
is to have what someone once termed "faith in someone else's faith."
That is, handing our belief structure over to someone else directly or through
any of many sacred scriptures and turning our own mind off. Although comforting
as a cocoon, the latter is no longer tenable for me, and it sounds like it's
not for you, either.
I am very touched that you resonated with my poem "Old Stories".
It was a powerful poem for me when I wrote it, and I hoped it would speak
to others at that level. Thank you for telling me.
Thanks again for your email, and I wish for you only the best in your journey
to new information and new experiences. It's a very large universe out here
beyond the Christian box, and our travels here are an unending adventure.
Write anytime.
Regards,
David
[OK, you gotta love this one! I always try to answer those who write me in something of the same level of communication, but this one was a challenge! Write and tell me if you think I got it right! BTW, once again, "coc" refers to "Church of Christ"-DC]
Date: 6-11-04
Subject: truth, or the pursuit.
Welcome.
>A few years ago when I was yet fully Christian in my beliefs, I wrote the following sentiment on a card and posted it in my home:
>"I would rather know a fearful truth than remain deceived by comforting falsehoods."
1)coc = cult/sect(comforting falsehoods) NOT= truth
2)leaving coc = going to truth ,
or= going to something else also untrue.
3)keep seeking truth. Shalom then.
David's response:
Howdy.
1. leaving CoC = movement out of,
not (necessarily) going to.
2. Movement forward could =
* toward Truth
* toward untruth, but
alternative = Stagnation / Existentialism
3. Keep seeking Truth =
positive action balanced with
open attitude and
healthy skepticism
4. "Not all who wander are lost" (Gandalf)
5. Thanks! and Pax Amicus
Date: 6-22-04
Subject: still mourning
Hello David,
I have returned to your site again a re-read the "Like a Divorce" page you have. True, so true. I am still hurting and in a mourning stage after turning away from the Bible and Christianity. How long does it last?
JM
David's response:
Hello JM,
Thanks for writing to me. I appreciate hearing from you.
The answer to "How long does the mourning last?" really depends on your own situation in terms of your personality and what it is that you decide to do next. Some people are prone to a more emotional response to things than others, and for those folks, the mourning "phase" may be more prolonged or profound. Others might be tempted to turn their emotional hurt into emotional anger and go stomping away into resentful, unconsidered atheism, never to emerge again with new thoughts or a new heart.
I think that the most important thing is to recognize the loss (and it is a profound loss), but then "get real" about it at a certain point and decide to move ahead into whatever presents itself as interesting and worthwhile. That process of deciding is very important. Once that movement has begun, you will soon discover that the mourning and the worry and the mental mess of the past is truly that - past. You may experience, as I did, an unexpected sense of wonder and joyful relief at finding yourself in a brand-new, clean-slate relationship with the universe. From that point on, there is only goodness, wonder, and worthwhile challenges as you begin to investigate what the real universe has to offer, as opposed to the dogmas and false structures of the man-made religions.
This is the process I am following, and it is truly a joy. I do remember every now and then how distraught I once felt about the Christian faith and culture and set of knowledge that I left behind me, but it is a distant thing now. It is something I muse over and dismiss because I have things that are so much more important to occupy my mind and heart now. I believe that this path is possible for anyone, and I am certain that you will move past the pain of the loss you are experiencing right now, even though it may seem overwhelming while you are in the midst of it.
I also think it is very important not to allow ourselves to become victimized by the feelings of loss and fall into just being "The One Who Is Hurt". That way is a dead-end that many have followed into a numb kind of existence.
Keep reading. Keep thinking and trying to figure things out. There really is a tremendous world outside of Christianity that you can learn to involve yourself in. I wish you the very best on your important journey and send you my encouragement during the "hard part". Feel free to write anytime, and thank you again for your email.
Regards,
David
David,
Thanks so much for writing. I'm going to keep your email and refer back to it periodically. I appreciate the depth of your response. Boy, this is really hard, but I know I have to get past it if I'm going to live happily.
Thanks for your response and your website.
Keep growing and learning.
JM
Date: 6-28-04
Subject: Poetry for the newly-converted unbeliever
Hiya David, I enjoyed your site... I especially liked your poem "Old Stories" - excellent "fishing line" metaphor.
Anyway, it moved me to share. This isn't my own (sadly) - it's by Rupert Brooke.
Heaven
Fish (fly-replete, in depth of June,
Dawdling away their wat'ry noon)
Ponder deep wisdom, dark or clear,
Each secret fishy hope or fear.
Fish say, they have their Stream and Pond;
But is there anything Beyond?
This life cannot be All, they swear,
For how unpleasant, if it were!
One may not doubt that, somehow, Good
Shall come of Water and of Mud;
And, sure, the reverent eye must see
A Purpose in Liquidity.
We darkly know, by Faith we cry,
The future is not Wholly Dry.
Mud unto mud! ˜ Death eddies near ˜
Not here the appointed End, not here!
But somewhere, beyond Space and Time.
Is wetter water, slimier slime!
And there (they trust) there swimmeth One
Who swam ere rivers were begun,
Immense, of fishy form and mind,
Squamous, omnipotent, and kind;
And under that Almighty Fin,
The littlest fish may enter in.
Oh! never fly conceals a hook,
Fish say, in the Eternal Brook,
But more than mundane weeds are there,
And mud, celestially fair;
Fat caterpillars drift around,
And Paradisal grubs are found;
Unfading moths, immortal flies,
And the worm that never dies.
And in that Heaven of all their wish,
There shall be no more land, say fish.
[NOTE: It was apparent from the email suffix that K was writing from Australia, thus my comment about geography. -DC]
David's response:
Hey K,
Thanks so much for writing and letting me know you liked my poem. I haven't had too much feedback on those, and it means a lot to know others are reading and enjoying them, even on other parts of the planet!
I really enjoyed the Brooke poem. I had not read that since I was a boy and had almost forgotten about it. Very interesting in this context.
Thanks again, and write anytime.
Regards,
David
It's a pleasure, David. I just noticed your signature, "Digital Artist" - are those your artworks on the website? Redgate_1.jpg is pretty cool.
I loved some of your writing - it was intriguing to read about your joyful moment of dissilusionment, even though the loss of my own religion wasn't accompanied by any great pain - more of a "phew, the guilt is lifted" moment really. I was 8 or 9 when I equated God with Santa Claus, and 14 when I finally stopped trying to believe.
I noticed you've got quite a few books listed on your website about the history of Christianity. I was wondering if there's a single book - or perhaps a couple - that can give me a good historical overview, without delving too much into the theology?
Hey, I'm in Sydney, by the way. I laughed when I read your "other parts of the planet" - makes me feel like I'm on Mars or something. Culturally speaking, we're probably reasonably similar to the US...
Here's your list (what do the double asterisks mean?):
Insights into the true history of religion and Christian religion.
** The Jesus Mysteries - Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
** In Search of the Birth of Jesus/The real journey of the Magi - Paul William Roberts
Zoroaster/Life and work of the forerunner in Persia - Grail Foundation Press (Dr. Micah Rubenstein)
Textual Sources for the Study of Zoroastrianism - Mary Boyce
** Power, Politics, and the Making of the Bible - Robert B. Coote & Mary P. Coote
** Food of the Gods/The search for the original Tree of Knowledge - Terence McKenna
The Babylonian Genesis - Alexander Heidel
The Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament Parallels - Alexander Heidel
The Sign and the Seal - Graham Hancock
** Bloodline of the Holy Grail - Laurence Gardner
** The Hiram Key -
** The Second Messiah -
** Uriel‚s Machine - Christopher Knight & Robert Lomas
** The Hermetica - Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
Thus Spoke Zarathustra - Friederich Neitzche (Walter Kaufmann translation)
The Forgery of the Old Testament & other essays -
The Myth of the Resurrection & other essays - Joseph McCabe
Why I am Not a Christian - Bertrand Russell
Why I am an Agnostic & other essays - Clarence Darrow
Abusing Science/The case against Creationism - Philip Kitcher
David's response:
Hey K,
I should have said "other parts of OUR planet"! I'm something of a geography nut and I still get a kick out of connecting with folks from places far away. I do know that Australia is very culturally similar to the U.S., and my wife and I intend to come visit there one of these days when we can scrape up the funds. I think I'd like Australia a lot, actually.
You asked about the artwork; yes, those are all my work. If you back up one URL level from the Joy site and just go to www.newrational.com you will find links to my other sites, some of which are artwork galleries, etc. Thanks for noticing!
The book list on my site is rather long, but then, I've been reading all this stuff for years! The double asterisks just indicate books I think are particularly important. One of these days, I'll get around to making commentary on all of them. You asked for a recommendation for the best book(s) on the historical overview of Christianity. I presume you have or can find most of the traditional histories that just restate the orthodox views. If you want to see a more accurate view, I would recommend looking at the books that explain how early Christianity was actually another version of the various "mystery religions" of the time. The most accessible of these are the two books by Freke and Gandy: "The Jesus Mysteries", and "Jesus and The Lost Goddess" (in that order). Whether you agree or not with all they say, it becomes clear that the original form of the Christian religion was a clone of those ancient mystery religions that taught a direct, personal connection with the Divine. The general term for this philosophy is Gnosticism.
Most people are not aware of the tremendous and thorough suppression of gnostic philosophy by the Roman church, or if they are, they still think of it in the terms that the Roman church promulgated - namely that it was a terrible heresy and that it is good that it is no longer around. Although Paul was revised to make him look like a virulent anti-gnostic, it is obvious in much of his Biblical writings that he takes a gnostic viewpoint.
Gnosticism in general has survived to this day, and it is an area I am personally researching and becoming involved in. Not the Christian "flavor" of it, actually, but rather in its more modern, pagan, even scientific modes. Some of this deals with shamanism, the oldest form of "religion", and it ties directly to more modern ideas such as those of Carl Jung.
Glad to hear you had a relatively easy time of disconnecting with traditional belief. You can probably tell that for some folks, like myself, it was a real life-wrencher, kind of like turning around one day and realizing that we are all the experiments of some aliens or something. Hmmm, might be something to that! :)
Best regards,
David
Date: 7-22-04
Subject: great site
Greetings!
I enjoyed looking over your site and the content thereof. myself have recently *de-converted* from Christianity so there have experienced the dichotomy of joy with dissolution as you aptly put it.
Though I can see more clearly now since I have thrown off the shackles of faith, I do not regret my experience in the church at the same time. What is keen about your site is that you don't spend time bashing Christians as many ex-Xians do. Anymore I am close to the atheist way of thinking but find many of them annoying with their venom. What I have noticed is that many atheists and fundamentalists feed one another's fire and they enjoy the bashing game to convince themselves.
Frankly I agree with E.O. Wilson, the sociobiologist and atheist, that religion will not go away anytime soon given that there seems to be a biological root for religious ritual,thinking. Many Freethinkers are just as utopian as Christian missionaries to juxtapose that we can social engineer a pure secular society via education and reliance on reason& science. The fact is that the majority of the human population finds this boring. Even when the claims of dogmatic religion are debunked on paper, many will prefer remaining in the safety of their shoebox worldview. Richard Dawkins claims that religion is a mind virus. It certainly seems that way.
Well, pardon my own soapbox here. Just intended to send you a bit of fan mail and to keep up the good work.
Regards,
MB
David's response:
Hi MB,
Thanks very much for your email! I appreciate hearing from those who have found my site to be useful in some way.
I agree that many people will never venture a peek outside their small box of understanding - a worldview that was delivered to them by someone else claiming authority. It is uncomfortable outside that box and people have been trained and raised to be weak in this regard, even to the point of being proud of their weakness and ignorance.
You are quite right about the strictly rationalist worldview not being viable any more than the traditional religious worldviews are for designing and fulfilling human society. I am quite interested in what drives us and where "religion" came from in the first place - that "biological root".
I don't know if religion is a "mind virus" or some other kind of unnatural expression within our species, but it could be. It may rather be that there is a fundamental, instinctual process in humans that causes us to desire to connect with the rest of nature in a more basic manner. This is a desire that goes largely unconcsious in our western societies where we've been trained to believe only in the things we have created with our brains. It could be that we have developed our cognitive abilities so much that we've lost touch with the rest of our body and spirit (however we may define that). The mainstream recieved religions just take us further away from any direct "connection" with the universe or nature by claiming that this life is not important and will be destroyed and that all good things will come later, after this life. In fact, these religions (and the governments that are derived from them) are deathly afraid of any philosophy that encourages people to not only think for themselves, but to actually seek out direct experience of things beyond the cognitive, material world around them. Such experiences could cause people to reject their authority and usurp their power.
Some of the so-called "primitive" societies are more in tune with their place in the natural world and some of their science is different from ours in ways that can be paradigm shifting. Many of them can see and work with things that we Westerners seem to have forgotten somehow.This is something I am exploring now, and it is quite interesting. I consider it true scientific investigation on the edge of current (Western) knowledge and beyond. I plan to offer some sharing of this new journey on a new site very soon. [NOTE: to be found at: www.nonordinary.com -DC]
Thanks for your observations about the tone of my site. I wanted it to be encouraging and not bashing. I understand the venomous atheist and the entrenched Christian very well, having experienced both situations myself to a greater or lesser degree, but I also know that both are traps. For the believer, it is a trap of never having been truly autonomous - taking in and evaluating new ideas- or of allowing themselves to become bound and indentured by those who claim authority. For the atheist, it is a trap of skeptical existentialism (only believe in what you can sense, but be sure to be skeptical of everything anyway - and never give an idea the lattitude of possibility). For those who were once believers, it is often a matter of being "mad at God" for not being real or what they wanted, and so spending the rest of their lives sulking and deriding believers. Surely, both of these philosophies are dead ends.
So, what then? Off we go into a real life - learning, sensing, helping others, and enjoying every moment of "right now"! That's the way I look at it, anyway. I hope it will be the same for you, and I wish you well on your journey, MB. Thanks again for writing, and do so anytime.
Regards,
David
Date: 7-26-04
Subject: consecraction of consciousness
I read your web page article "The Consecration of Consciousness." It sounded exactly like Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. In objectivism, there is no God, and man‚s highest and most noble moral action is creative work. It is a philosophy that has appealed to me since I began reading "Atlas Shrugged" (by Rand). Have you read it?
I am currently a Christian (Mormon) struggling with my beliefs, largely due to the apparent historical problems associated with my faith. However, I haven‚t thrown out God completely yet. I don‚t think there is any way to prove or disprove the existence of God, and it probably comes down to a simple choice to believe or disbelieve. For the time being, I see God in just the same way as I see the ocean ˆ it is beautiful and powerful and full of life, and my relationship to it depends solely upon me. The ocean will go on rolling whether I admit it‚s existence or not. I might feel at one with the ocean on a surfboard, and in the next moment a giant wave might crush me on the coral. The ocean makes no moral judgment either way, and neither should I. I won‚t curse the ocean or deny its existence; it simply is what it is.
I have been reading Marcus Aurelius lately. He believes in a higher intelligence or order, which sometimes he even refers to as "The Gods." However, he is open-minded enough to realize that when he dies, that might be the end of his existence. But it might not.
I have found your website helpful. There is a certain panic that I feel when I realize that (to paraphrase William Blake's The Fly‚ "the want of thought is death," but I have found that life is more precious when you see how little time you have left. I have begun studying actual history rather than the mythical version I was raised on, and I find the Romans, Greeks, and Founding Fathers to be just as interesting, and infinitely more inspiring, because they are real.
Thx - JS
Also, your poetry is very good. That is rare on the internet, particularly on homemade web sites.
David's response:
Hi JS,
Thanks for your email! I really appreciate hearing from you.
I am somewhat familiar with Ayn Rand, but have not had the time to read much of her work except parts of "The Virtue of Selfishness". It does seem an interesting and generally positive philosophy for those who desire to remain only in a strict humanist/rational view of things. Like you, I see at least the possibility of something "out there" that we might consider divine or at the center of things, but to call it "God" is too tied up in preconceived notions and paradigms that are patently false. I like your ocean analogy, but this ocean is much more difficult to touch or bathe in. This universe is certainly beautiful and powerful, but it is also vast and mostly untouchable, unlike our handy and compact sea.
Is there something or some"one" at the center of it all? That is the question, and the quest, but I have ceased calling it by any particular name until I have more data. The closest I come is to call it that "Divine Other", for one thing is clear - it is not human or ego/human in its form or personality. There is no "Daddy God" for us, as much as we might like it to be so. I feel like we probably would have to "evolve" into something beyond human to really be able to see its form (and perhaps we shall), but I have come to believe that some people can "encounter" this divine essence in certain ways in this life and form. As you imply, any such encounter is solely on its terms, not ours. The great hurricane pays little attention to the fish of the sea, much less any single one of them, and they should not expect to be able to alter the mighty wind's course by even an atom's width.
I guess part of what I'm saying is that I feel this Divine Other is an integral, if not causal, part of Nature. Since we, too, are a part of Nature, we should be able to connect in some manner, however tenuous, with this force. Many of those who have experienced shamanistic "journeys" or altered their concsiousness in other ways, such as with entheogens, have reported such connections. It's not an area of interest to orthodox science, because it is not in the zone of accepted knowledge yet, but that does not mean it is not scientific. I am exploring this frontier now, and I hope to be journalling some of this part of my journey onto a new website soon for those who may be interested. As you may expect from the content of my Joy of Disillusionment site, this new journey will never be about belief, only about doing and recording.
I'm happy you found the material on "nowness" helpful. There is a lot more of that side of the philosophy out there that I did not know about when I wrote that part. The famous book by Eckhart Tolle, "The Power of Now" is one of them, along with some of the eastern writers. I'm reading an old (1951) volume right now by Alan W. Watts, called "The Wisdom of Insecurity" that is also deeply about this topic. I concur about the increase in value we give to life when we are no longer fooled by fantasies of eternal existence, but it even goes deeper than considering "how much time I have left" and setting a new perspective accordingly. If we finally come to the conclusion that only the present moment is real, then life is completely focussed and becomes infinitely valuable during each "moment" of it. I like Phillip Wheelwright's quote that "...to be of the present is to be, and candidly know ourselves to be, on the crest of a breaking wave." That wave is ever-cresting, and we are always tossed about in that energy that is Life.
Thank you so much for your kind comments about my poems. Those are really the more personal, emotional things I put out there, and I am very appreciative when anyone finds a connection with them.
Happy Trails to you, JS, wherever the wave takes you, and thanks so much for your email. Write anytime.
Regards,
David
David -
Thanks for your reply. However, what are entheogens? Also, I was surpised to read that you accept the validity of personal experience, which is where most mormons go to validate their belief in God. For us (I'm an extreme sceptic, but still actively practicing, therefore I can still say "us"), the highest form of knowledge is personal witness, which we refer to as
"testimony." Mormons routinely overlook the most glaring logical discrepancies, because their personal testimony overrides all. I have personally experienced the feeling of what I call "God" many times. Others might call it the experience of the numinous, or a mystical union with the infinite. Whatever. The point is that, much like Jodie Foster's character in the movie "Contact", I have felt something that I believe is God, and no amount of arguing can dissuade me from it. It is a personal experience that I can't deny (nor could Blaise Pascal, who was nothing if not a master of logic, and who I believe felt the same thing, which he recorded in "Pensees.") Most mormons would claim the same about their belief in Joseph Smith and the all-encompassing correctness of their religion. There is no way to refute personal experience.
That's why I can't completely deny God. I've felt him (or her, or it), and to me that is as good a fact as any. However, I can't believe that God is looking out for everyone's best interests, because there are too many children being murdered in the Sudan right now. It's a fairly common philosophical problem, which is probably why I haven't left mormonism yet. I can't believe in my religion 100%, but since nobody else has satisfactorily answered the questions that mormonism has failed to answer, I guess I have nowhere else to turn. And besides, it's really a pretty nice lifestyle - a tad constricting at times, but generally healthy and good.
So
for now I only know what I know - that there is a universal intelligence,
which I call God, and that it has many characteristics of the ocean. It is
grand, beautiful, and dangerous. And I disagree that it is difficult to bathe
in. You and I swim in it every day. I feel it all around me, and I see it's
influence in everything, both good and bad. Maybe you don't have this same
experience. I don't know. If you don't, you're never going to get it by reading
books. I don't mean to sound condescending by that, but the only reason I
found Pascal interesting was because his story sounded familiar, not because
he was telling me about something of which I had no conception. Judging by
your ability with poetry, I would guess that you're a receptive, sensitive
person. You admit that "some people" probably experience a connection
to the infinite, but it doesn't sound like you include yourself in this category.
Is this true?
David's response:
Hi JS,
Thank you for responding. . . .I agree with most everything you've said. I agree that a personal experience is not something we can refute. By its nature, it's "personal" - not empirical or measurable. That said, it is one thing to have an experience, and it is quite another matter to interpret it in a particular manner. I feel that most traditional religionists, including Mormons, when they do have a legitimate spiritual "experience" have a predeliction to interpret it in those well-known and expected terms. A Mormon would naturally interpret it in Mormon terms, whereas a Hindu would interpret the identical experience in terms of Hinduism, etc. Growing up, I don't know what I would have interpreted such an event as, since I was raised in a sect that did not believe such things possible in our time.
No, I can honestly say that I have never had a direct experience of this type, other than some very intriguing and powerful dreams. Once, I would have discounted such experiential reports from others as nothing more than emotionalism. I've looked into it more now and I have come to believe that such experiences are often valid and quite attainable - and they can be life-changing in their effect. I am a sensitive and receptive person, and I do honestly seek such an experience, but here's what is crucial: I am determined to keep my interpretation filters wide open and not jump to any conclusions about the reality or meaning of such an event. That would be the same old trap of settling for someone else's dogma or faith and, moreover, it would limit my perception and attempt to understand by plopping it into a handy pre-made box.
I understand your comment about not finding such an experience in books - that is, in book-reading only. I understand that, but at the same time, I have worked from a severely biased and limited data set in the past and I need to expand my knowledge base to include as much data as possible in the form of other possible interpretive systems or possible techniques for achieving such an experience.
As I inferred before, I view this effort as essentially scientific in form. I am definitely in action now and experimenting on the frontiers of (at least my own) knowledge.
There are many such systems to be considered from Jungian Synchronicity to Sufi Mysticism, but so far, my research has mostly led me back in time (relative to Western Man) to the techniques employed by tribal peoples all over the globe from time immemorial - the techniques and tools of shamanism. I have come to think that shamanism is the precursor to all the other religions of the world, from the various mysticism movements on up through received religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Mormonism. It is still practiced today everwhere from the Amazon to Siberia by traditional and indigenous peoples. Some of those folks use natural substances to invoke a non-ordinary experience, such as the Ayahuasceros in Peru who use a powerful combination of particular vines and leaves to make a psychoactive "tea" that is used in a ritual manner to enter "other worlds" to do healing work and accomplish other goals including the serious spiritual quest. This kind of thing has always been dismissed by our culture as sheer superstition, but there is actually much scientific basis and efficacy in this kind of "medicine work".
The word "entheogen" was coined by R. Gordon Wasson some 40 years ago and means "releasing or expressing the divine within" (It has the same root as "enthusiasm"). It refers to any such plant or chemical substance that is used in this manner (as opposed to being abused for entertainment). Many legitimate peoples use entheogens in a serious and respectful manner (the Native American Church's use of Peyote, for example, or the three recognized churches in Brazil who use the Ayahuasca tea - two of them Christian!). Unfortunately, our society has so demonized such things that it is almost impossible to speak about them without causing knee-jerk fear or condemnation reactions.
Entheogens represent one important method of experiencing the divine, but there are other methods that include forms of meditation and physical extremism or ascetisicm. I think the Eastern religions have actually been a little closer to these things than we Westerners have understood, but they, too, are most often wrapped up in dogmatic interpretation schemes that limit their understandings (religious Buddhism, Hinduism, etc).
You indicated that you were comfortable for now remaining within the social structure of Mormonism for lack of having any alternatives. Nothing wrong with that as long as you are aware of the true nature of their interpretations that are being presented as dogmatic truth, which it seems you are. For myself, it is more instructive and interesting to put myself in (to me) alien environments like some of the Eastern systems, just to find another way of looking at things and see if it gives me new data to chew on. Carlos Casteneda said something about this as part of the Warrior's Way - that "the Warrior (in my case the "warrior-scientist-explorer") believes in everything - and in nothing." By that, he meant that we can gain information and power by placing ourselves within any particular belief system for a while in order to assess it, experience it, and perhaps use it, without actually adopting its belief dogmas for ourselves.
Well, I hope that is something of an adequate answer to your comments and questions, and I trust it gives you a better picture of my path and views right now. Thanks again for your correspondence.
Best wishes!
David
DEAR FRIENDS,
This is the "tail of the cat", I'm afraid. The last of the Conversations that I have received up to the time of my site revision. As I receive more emails from you, I will post them here for everyone's education and mutual support
[Please note my privacy statements at the beginning of the Conversations section. I will always protect your identity and email!]
PLEASE CONTINUE TO EMAIL ME WITH YOUR COMMENTS AND YOUR QUESTIONS. As I have stated many times in the responses above, I truly do appreciate your communications and I respect your time and efforts to do so.
Finally, I want to THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your wonderful conversations! This site is a labor of love and I am honestly amazed at the volume and the quality of the responses I have received from all of you - from all walks of life, and from all over the world. Thank you again!
Yours in Joy and Peace,
David Crews
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1
joy@newrational.com
