Conversations -

Questions, Answers, Observations, and a few Kudos

 

Continued
 

Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3

Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4 (begins below)

Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1

 

Correspondence from 2003

Page: 4

Date: 9-16-03
Subject: Your website

I try to visit as many web sites as I can and I enjoyed reading yours, both the design and contents. I think you can learn a lot by going into cyberspace and visiting with other people. It gives you a better understanding of what they know, think, and feel. Thanks and best regards, BM

David's response:

Hi BM,

Thanks for the email, and I am glad you enjoyed my site. The Internet is a marvellous tool to connect folks who would othewise never come into contact.

I enjoyed your musings and quotes on your site.

Regards,
David

Date: 10-7-03

Dear David,

Though very briefly, I wanted to thank you warmly for your web-site. I converted to Christianity in my late twenties, and deconverted after seventeen years - last year. I have found many xperiences of mine nicely expressed in your materials.

I only wanted to add that my deconversion process started with encountering Earl Doherty's web page http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm
I think this is really something which would deserve to be on your recommend-to-read list.

I would appreciate your opinion.

With best regards
P
David's response:

Dear P,

Thank you for your email, I honestly appreciate hearing from those who find my site and find it helpful in some way.
I took a quick look at the site you mentioned and it looks very interesting. I was not aware of that one in particular, and I'll check it out further and plan to put it on my links list.

Again, thanks for writing and best of wishes on your philosophical journey!

Regards,
David

Dear David,

Thank you for your quick response.

> I took a quick look at the site you mentioned and it looks very interesting.
> I was not aware of that one in particular, and I'll check it out further and
> plan to put it on my links list.

Maybe it is useful when I add a few words. My deconversion process started in fact by L. Strobel's book The case for Christ which I read in July 2002. I was happy that a journalist converted to Christianity but I got unquiet by many dishonest arguments (for historical Jesus) which I recognized there.

Similarly as you, I always prefered to know the truth (however fearful it can be) than to calm myself by lies and dishonest arguments. So I looked at the Internet and found the excellent refutation of the arguments in Strobel's book by Earl Doherty (which you can also find at the mentioned web-page http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm ).
And then I naturally proceeded with reading more Doherty's materials. I did not want to "swallow" his arguments carelessly, so I did my own research using http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

It was time consuming, and for me emotionally very difficult, but then I could confirm his arguments from my own amateur research. (I also saw by myself how misleading the New Testament translations are wrt the Greek text, in particular in sentences with "kata sarka" etc.)

When I now read the epistles in NT (but also, e.g., Clement's epistle to Corinthians), I wonder how I could ever thought that the authors had a Gospel Jesus of Nazareth in mind. If one just allows as a possibility that they did not then one can see that they surely didn't. Also reading Philo of Alexandria and, e.g., Ascension of Isaiah is very telling.

I really found Doherty's site as a place worth of a thorough study. I also found his book reviews very useful.
(It would interesting to read R. Price's book Deconstructing Jesus; R. Price was formerly a Christian apologist! [I found interesting http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/index.shtml
and there, e.g., Christ a Fiction (1997)]

A most recent very interesting book seems to be THE JESUS THE JEWS NEVER KNEW by Frank R. Zindler, American Atheist Press, 2003, which Doherty reviews currently in his What's New Anyway, there is a lot of very interesting material on Doherty's web page. (I would recommend to start with MAIN ARTICLES: The Jesus Puzzle)

OK, maybe I look as a big fan of Doherty now but I really think that his work is a certain breakthrough.
It is ironic: the Catholic church whose active member I was urges the believers in her II Vatican Council documents to read the Bible - taking into account various literary forms, the context of writing particular books, the intention of the authors, etc. I did this now very honestly and thoroughly, and found out: the epistles of NT were written by authors who took the information about Jesus Christ from Scriptures and/or revelations (they seem to have never heard of any Jesus of Nazareth as described in Gospels), and the Gospel story stems from a single (!) literary source, which seems to be an obvious piece of a "midrash" writing.

And the process of transforming the (invented) story of Jesus executed under Pontius Pilate into history - but only in minds of people in the course of the second century - is so understandable, and so clear from the survived Christian documents that my reason just could not deny the obvious.

OK, good luck in your further life (consisting of a series of extraordinary moments - I feel this similarly) !

Best regards
P
David's response:
Dear P,

Thanks for all the links and for your suggestions on these various sources. I read the "puzzle" essays by Doherty with interest. They are very well presented and it is a fascinating basic observation about the New Testament to understand that the later writers simply don't reference the teacher stories of the gospel(s) at all.

None of this is, of course, surprising to me after all the other things I've read over the last few years, especially about how the content of the New Testament is so obviously derivitive of much older religious traditions, notably Zoroastrianism and Magi-ism from Persia. These traditions are the source of most of the iconic items of the Christian tableau - a messianic "saviour" god who is derived from or subject to a "father" god and who must die and be reborn; the idea of angels or angelic beings or demigods; the idea of an evil or fallen god or angel, ie: Satan; and the very core idea of a "daddy" style God with whom one can have a personal relationship. These are very Persian ideas and were forcibly injected into the Jewish mindset during the times of their national captivity.

These traditions or myths also reach further back into Vedism and the influence of the Aryan peoples who introduced the concept of patriarchal, male-god religion in the first place, overturning or supressing the more shamanic, naturalistic concepts of the Dravidians in the Indian sub-continent.

There are some fascinating books by Freke and Gandy (The Jesus Mysteries) that give an interesting and enlightening insight into the setting of the early Christian churches that shows how they were directly part of the tradition of the Mystery Schools that existed all over that part of the world. The form of Christianity that we have today is but the hollow shell of what was once a vibrant mystical and spritual system that was viciously and thoroughly eradicated by those in power in the centuries following. The original "mysteries" have been lost to us, but vestiges remain in some of the histories of the Knights Templar and others.

I can sympathize with your feelings of emotional difficulty in coming to this kind of research and the conclusions it engenders. I can only say that for myself, there came a moment when I "got it" and simply stepped back from the entire thing and became almost amused at how insignificant it all is. The only thing that really matters is who and what we are right now and what we decide to do right now. For me, that entails searching on into the unknown regions of mind and spirit, determined not to be constrained by any system of belief or structure of interpretation. I am a warrior and will proceed with control and dignity, curiosity and openness, and quite a bit of humor!

There is a new kind of philosophy of living that takes this approach and seems to be practical for me and for others who have come to this mental place in our lives. Sometimes called the Way of the Warrior, it has best been codified so far by Robert L. Spencer in his book, The Craft of the Warrior. I highly recommend it for people who have taken this path out of traditional religion and who find a loss of momentum or who may be tempted into hedonism or depression. I am researching this quit a bit now, and hope to write my own book on the subject.

I appreciate your communication and I hope my thoughts are welcome and interesting to you. Write anytime and let me know how things are going in your search for the underlying truths!

Best regards,
David
Dear David,

> Thanks for all the links and for your suggestions on these various sources.
> I read the "puzzle" essays by Doherty with interest. They are very well
> presented and it is a fascinating basic observation about the New Testament
> to understand that the later writers simply don't reference the teacher
> stories of the gospel(s) at all.

Yes, this was very fascinating for me. Doherty really "opened the Scriptures" to me.

Surely, it is very difficult to guess how all the things went precisely, Doherty can not know this either but it is so crystally clear that it went substantially differently than Christian churches teach. Btw, I found fantastic the Second century Christian apologies to which Doherty also draws our attention. I read them, and understand very well why nowadays Christian apologists carefully avoid this topic. If somebody reads, e.g., the work Octavianus by Minucius Felix and believes after this that the author was basing his religion on some (absolutely unmentioned) Jesus Christ (not to speak about any Jesus of Nazareth), then he (the reader) has really a "big faith" - going against the most basic common sense.

> There are some fascinating books by Freke and Gandy (The Jesus Mysteries)

I read the review on Doherty's web page; it is very positive though Doherty has some reservations wrt some aspects - I think that this reflects the fact that sources for origins of Christianity were very manifold, and hardly can anybody describe all aspects precisely.

> I can sympathize with your feelings of emotional difficulty in coming to
> this kind of research and the conclusions it engenders. I can only say that
> for myself, there came a moment when I "got it" and simply stepped back from
> the entire thing and became almost amused at how insignificant it all is.

Yes, despite all emotional difficulties, I was also something like "amused" how my "air castles" collapsed so quickly. I was always aware of "difficult pieces" of Christianity, the Bible etc. but my mental image which I had about Jesus of Nazareth kept all this a bit unimportant. Once I realized that this Jesus is only a literature hero, all these "difficult pieces" easily found heir place in the "puzzle", and I just wondered how I could not have seen this before.

> been codified so far by Robert L. Spencer in his book, The Craft of the
> Warrior.

Thank you for all your interesting remarks and comments, hopefully I will get also to that book sometimes. I plan to look at your web-page from time to time, looking forward to future materials.

Best regards
P
Date: 10-20-03
Dear David,

Prior to accepting Christ some 6 years ago, I was an athiest. I was not raised in a Christian household and so converting to Christianity was something exceptional. Over the course of those years, I began feeling insecure, having guilt for any number of "sins" that heretofore were natural. Recently, we began a 6 week bible study, 40 Days of Purpose. The guilt for being successful and actually wanting to spend some of my money on ME, started me thinking-not acting, just a vague sense that something was wrong with this picture.

After reading The Da Vinci Code, I started looking for researched or less known information to tell me if the Bible was truthfully written. I found, among other info, the Nag Hammandi library and a competely different view of Jesus that the Gnostics believed. More investigating and the truth became apparent that the Bible, as we know it, is little better than propoganda by the dominant "Christian" sect at the time. The so called "canonization" of the books only reinforces that it is one sided and is not the inerrant word of God, but only the desired information was included to reinforce their particular belief!

With the Bible no longer a reliable source for baseing my faith, I had an epiphany that what I felt to be true before my conversion was still true. There is no God. What we have here and now is all that we get. Our legacy does live on based on what we do with our lives.

Your site expresses much of what I feel very eloquently. Far more than I am capable of expressing. Thank you!

I still have the quandry that my wife is a devout Christian and was responsible for my initial conversion to Christianity.Also, I am in the middle of bible study with 2 groups for the next 5 weeks. No one else is aware of my deconversion, except select members of my siblings and dad. My wife will be devastated when I tell her my feelings. My children will also have difficulty since they have only known me as a strongly devout Christian. Our home, is so many ways is entwined in the Christian experience. This will be a big shock to all!

Thank you for your beautifully written site. Your thoughtful approach is comforting when some other sites have an angry tone.

DR.
David's response:
Dear DR,

Thank you so much for writing. I truly appreciate hearing from those who have found my site to be of some service, and your positive comments mean a lot.

I was fascinated to hear about your "double-back" experience. Many who write to me have been raised in religion their entire lives (like me) and are facing the basic concepts of non-religion for the first time. It seems it may have been an original experience for you, though, to have conducted pro-active research to validate or debunk the authority of the scriptures. It is commendable that you did that and found those answers you sought.

I agree with your assessment, of course, that the Christian Bible represents the biased views of a controlling few. It is, in fact, a political control mechanism and much of the original religion was harshly suppressed. Following in the long established tradition of the Greeks and others, the Mystery Schools of the Christian Gnostics were the deeper, more sophisticated parts of the religion. Those who followed that understanding relied on personal, mystical experiences and that, of course, fell out of the purview and control of those men who were in power. Therefore, all such mystery groups were viciously exterminated, leaving only the shallow shell of literal "beliefs" that left people in a very controllable state.

Your family situation is certainly difficult. I can only say that I believe we should be authentic in our search for our own truths while being sensitive to the beliefs and needs of our family and friends. In being authentic and honest within ourselves and towards them, we can expect and require dignified treatment from them as well. Everyone should have the right and freedom to pursue their own path to truth and life philosophy, and perhaps your own process will be an example for your children to learn to think their own way instead of just following an "inherited" culture of belief. I feel that you and your spouse will have to find a way to respect each other's spirituality or philosophies without condemning one another.

It's my feeling, too, that not everyone needs to know where my philosophy has taken me. Certainly one's spouse and children must know, but there are others in my family for instance, including my mother, who do not know the extent of my deconversion even now that I author my website.

I hope that you can find a way to guide your family into understanding that your shift of philosophy is not a devastation, but rather an honorable and, for you, positive circumstance. This may be difficult, as they will have been trained to consider all such thought as wrong and as leading to no good end. Being a whole person outside of religion requires a kind of integrity and lovingkindess that is far above what many religions espouse.

I wish the very best for you, DR, in your journey through these strange waters. I honor your heart path that has taken you through the rapids of paternalistic religion and back to the broader, sometimes more disturbing and wondrous, waters of a rational assessment of the world. If you wish to, let me know how things go. I am interested and I'll be here if you need to talk about it.

Best regards,
David
Date: 10-29-03
Subject: Non-christian site

I too am a non-Christian. My church believes in speaking in tongues.
Is this something you are familiar with? Just wondering. J.
David's response:
Hi J,

Thanks for writing. I am familiar with the practice of "speaking in tongues" as it is done in many of the so-called Pentecostal churches. This was something my particular church upbringing derided as being rank emotionalism and play-acting on the part of gullible church-goers and their controlling male leaders, and for most of my life I have dismissed it as such. In fact, I still believe that most of it is just exactly that.

Since my awakening to the much larger world outside of Christianity, however, I have become much more aware of the depth and possibilities of the human mind / soul / brain. In studying the earliest form of religion - that of shamanism - it is obvious that altered states of being can be achieved where many strange and wonderful things can be manifested. Some of these things seem beyond rational explanation, which makes them much more interesting to a new-rationalist like me! Whether "speaking in tongues" as such is one of these phenomena is questionable, but I have an open mind about these things when they are achieved by people in an honest setting rather than a hyped-up fundamentalist Christian setting (or for that matter, a hyped-up Kabbalistic Jewish setting or any other over-emotionalized religious ritualism).

It is interesting that you say you are a non-Christian, yet you belong to a church. Is this, perhaps, because of family constraints? That is a common situation for many who have "deconverted" but their spouse, parents, or siblings and friends are still all fervent believers.

Thanks for checking out my website, and I hope it has been of some help to you. Write anytime!

Regards,
David

[NOTE: I believe this exchange is one of the most important conversations I've had the privilege to have with someone from the extended web community. JJ, Thanks for writing!]

Date: 11-11-03
Subject: A Disillusioned Friend humbly returns

Hi David,

I never thanked you for your fine and comforting response however many months ago. I finally picked up "The Way of the Peaceful Warrior" and it's sitting by my computer, hoping to be read within the next few months. I noticed my email snaked its way onto your website -- fine by me, perhaps it will help someone else who struggles in the future.
I hope you don't mind if I ask your advice again -- I don't mean to be an intrusive guest or overstay my welcome. It has been months since I made contact and you are one of few people who I feel a special sort of kinship with; someone who can understand or is at least open to new ideas...searching for meaning in this often confusing life.

What I have to say is this: I feel as if I am caught in some extraordinary flux. Trapped in time. Repeating patterns infinitely without end. I am me, myself, and intelligent and inquisitive person. Yet always the question.
"What really matters?"

I play video games, I watch TV, I lift weights, I run, I sit, I think...but the question always lingers. Whatever happens, no matter the order of events, I always return to it. Perhaps in my search for the answer I reflect on the past or dream about the future. I think about decisions I wish I would have made where none existed, and I revel in my limited achievements. Nothing helps. I'm still just here, another person. A lost and confused one.

The ultimate result is apathy. I neglect homework, I don't apply myself incredibly to any one task, and I shrug away the value of anything anyone else might think they know. I guess I decide that I never can find meaning. It reminds me of God. Meaning is what God is to me. Either it doesn't exist at all, or it's just something I can never know.

In that state of mind, success is nonexistent. Success is self-defined. Yet if my success differs from the rest of the world and I am doomed to be unsuccessful by world standards, then if I'm lucky I will probably end up in an alley somewhere picking rotten food from trash cans next to Al's Breakfast. Or I could find myself on my deathbed, my life having simply faded away in the blink of an eye that is temporal existence -- that is mortality. Mortality which inevitably exists to any who has seen the world in a new light, one without the soothing promises of Christianity.

My mom always told me that thinking too much is "mental masturbation," -- and I'm a thinking addict. I'm probably doing that right now, even though I am in the flux phase where I merely exist. Why? What matters? A large part of that ultimate question is "What is life?" I spoke last time about dreams and reality being separate entities, and I have found your correction to make more sense to me. But still, if my dreams exist, then is there a greater importance to my living, material life than to my world of dreams? You seemed to want to combine the two to a degree that I can't comprehend. To merge the dream into the reality, to make the goal the truth. Yet some dreams can't exist in the real world.

I don't know if I can explain to a degree of generally comprehensible accuracy what I mean to communicate. The reality is that most of my ideas and "knowledge" are a result or integral part of my human experience. I have found Existentialism to be another great philosophy to ponder. I guess I will leave a link to a website. I have tried to write essays about what this means to me, but I haven't been able to in any degree of fair understandability. I would like to know what you think about this, about "roleplaying" I suppose I am talking about, in regards to self-exploration.

I realize that many other people in that environment are just looking for a game. This does not change my thoughts on the intriguing "value?" of roleplaying as an exploratory tool of self. A human being, with a complete personality and set of motivations and dreams springs directly from my living self, perhaps most heavily influenced by my self-conscious. This human character, this "role" is not me, it is a different human who acts differently and thinks differently from myself...at least, in theory. However, knowing that the role is my own, that the role was born of my own mind which is the result of my own experiences, well...I find that my "character" obtains his own unique set of experiences that I occasionally apply to my own life. A human born of my subconscious, setting out on his own life in a world made of other peoples' dreams and imagination, is simultaneously living within my own subconscious that gave birth to him. Although the setting is that of a dream world, the spawn of imagination, the relationships between characters -- the persona that each player uses in this process -- are real, at least in that world of dreams...

I don't know. I hope you understand some of this. If you read all of that mess, I thank you again. I would be interested in what your thoughts are about the subconscious and "imaginary" experiences such as those of an online roleplay. Here's that link -- [link to gaming site]. I don't want to "waste" time on computer games, but this has seemed to be more to me. If it helps, I have written some posts on the [stories] section. . . .

I would very much like to know what you have to say. If you don't have anything to say about the roleplaying, either postive or negative (if comments can be categorized so,) maybe you could offer some advice on breaking free of this "flux," if such an action is necessary. Inside of the flux, I see no need to break free. Success is just a standard set by a greedy world of selfish individuals seeking to gain power and popularity.

JJ

David's response:
Hi JJ,

Thanks so much for writing to me again. I always welcome your emails and I'll do my best to give you something back, at least to chew and think on a bit.

I'm glad you found the Millman book. Do read it and let me know what you think. It may resonate with you, or perhaps not, but it does represent a methodology or philosophy that could lead you out of the state of "flux" you find yourself in. If you'd like another reference, I would lead you to a book by a Tibetan man who developed a similar philosophy. This is the Shambhala teachings of Chogyam Trungpa (book is: Shambhala, The Sacred Path of the Warrior, and should be easily obtainable). This is a teaching I am actively pursuing right now in my quest for information about the Way of the Warrior.

The reason I think this could lead you into a new place is because it deals with meaning and purpose in life, but from a point of view that is pointedly non-religious. Trungpa, for instance, takes much of his philosophy from Tibetan Buddhism, but purposefully recast and redefined it into an entirely secular form which he then named after the legendary kingdom of Shambhala (or Shangri-la). I won't go into the details for you here, but read the Millman first as it is an easier (native Western) way in to this subject.

You answered your own question about what matters:

> I am me, myself, and intelligent and inquisitive person. Yet always the question. "What really matters?"

It seems invisible to you because you still equate meaning with something beyond yourself. If we only see ourselves as something "less than", then we will never be happy or fulfilled. The great American writer, Loren Eisley, once observed that the human race, with all its babbling and warring and cheering cacophony, is something like a chorus of frogs or crickets - just one more natural sound of the Earth where each individual animal is shouting to the heavens just as loud as it can, "I am here!, I am here!". While acknowledging such perspectives on humanity, I believe it is important that we focus our philosophies on our own personal selves. If we can express and nurture the basic goodness that exists in each of us, we may be able to lift not only ourselves up, but also others who may need a hand or an example. This is the essence of Humanism.

In the role-playing games, it seems you have found a vehicle that can empower you to redefine parts of yourself. [BTW, I understand your disquietude with the way our subconcious seems at times to have another agenda from our cognitive mind, even another identity.] The games, as venue or catalyst, are not, however, the only way to make such redefinitions. We can redefine or express new parts of ourselves in many creative ways.

I have played some D&D and other role playing games in the past, enough to know how immersive they can be, and my first impulse was to caution you against over-immersion, but I get your question about "If real life has no real meaning, then what's the difference if I live it or live a role-play persona in a game?" The only thing I can say about that is that you shouldn't give up on real life quite so quickly. There IS real meaning in real life, but it doesn't come to us from God or gods or anyone's politics or government or company. And the real tough catch is this: it doesn't come from outside us at all! We have to create the meaning of our lives for ourselves. The key word there is "create". That puts us in the role typically reserved for the Gods, but it is our actual role and our true responsibility, and it does involves work.

So, does that mean we have to be successful in order to aquire meaning? You mentioned your dissatisfaction with the everyday world's definition of "success". Here is a situation where some of the East's wisdom is useful, specifically the distinction of "non-dualism". I don't know if you are familiar with this concept, but this is the idea that while natural opposites like good vs. evil, or darkness vs. light, do exist for us, they are not helpful when we try to find a center of meaning in our lives. If we define our meaning according to "success" vs. "failure", we are restricted to what those extremes are, or rather what they have been defined to be by others. One of Trungpas lines is appropriate here:
"By entering the present completely, you approach things without bias and you are neither for nor against things. Neither are they for nor against you."

This is some strange stuff for Westerners to get our minds around, but it is the only path I know to creating meaning for ourselves, and it is tied up with the idea of the importance of the present moment. Here is something to consider: the future does not exist. It is not real. The past does not exist. It is not real. The present moment is the only thing that is real. Even when we plan for or think about the future, we do it in the present moment! Try shifting your perspective from "I'm just here" to "I AM here!"

When I mentioned to you about dreams becoming reality, I didn't mean in a simplistic, literal way. Your role-playing game will always be a construct - something quite instinctually distinct from the actual, visceral world around your physical body (no matter how immersed your mind gets in it from time to time). Rather, it is our dreams and projections that are the expressions of our true magic - our power of creating. We can do what no other beings (that we know of) can do - dream up something and then create it from the pictures in our mind. More importantly and more subtly, if we act and live in a certain way, with certain expectations of ourselves and others and the world around us, then that world tends to form in that shape just by the sheer power of our own will and creative force. That is what I meant by dreams becoming reality. We declare ourselves to be a certain person, and then act authentically in accordance with the declaration. Then, magically and powerfully, all the world around us will come right into line with and truly become that new reality.

The real world is full of wonders, many of which we ignore by the routines of our busy lives. If you ever find yourself wondering if you should pay more attention to a role game versus the real world, just note that the game was made by a human being. You know how it was created. The real world is a true and wondrous Mystery. As much as science has discovered, we still do not know how it came to be in such a fantastic form. The real Mystery of the real world is more motivating than the actions of playing in someone's created world. We just have to see the Mystery with our own minds and acknowledge it as real.

I read a bit of your postings, and you have some writing talent, JJ. Have you thought about fiction writing? Might be fun and rewarding and creative and meaningful...

One last thought - I can say with confidence that your Mother, unfortunately, is wrong. Refusing to think or to be a "thinking person" is really a fear-based response to the world. Thinking is what we do - is what we ARE. It gives us the ability to create, which defines our world, which is the very thing that makes us Human.

Write again and let me know how it goes.

Peace and Joy,
David

Wow!

Thanks a lot! You are such a wonderful person... I greatly appreciate the care that you have taken to help me find my center, to help me clear away the cloud of confusion -- or realize that it is my OWN cloud and that I don't have to be confused if I don't want to.

Something that I can appreciate and must commend you for in a very high respect is your very positive, nice comments. You don't just see the good, like everyone else, but you take the time and effort to express your sight of it and to commend, which is a very nurturing and loving act uncommon among strangers. Thank you!! There is little that can be said, little that can be demonstrated or seen or heard -- little that I have seen, anyway -- that creates such an uplifting, great outlook for life. It is such a simple thing, yet it is one of your greatest vehicles for creation. I can't help now but strive to emulate such a caring and kind, excellent manner of dealing with people -- other human beings, living breathing creatures. Creatures of creation!

Thank you for more book recommendations...I hope to read The Way of the Peaceful Warrior sometime soon and I will definitely look into Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior shortly after. I am definitely interested in material that gets down to the core values of life without intertwining the complications that religion may sometimes cause.

>"If real life has no real meaning, then what's the difference if I live it or live a role-play persona in a game?' The only thing I can say about that is that you shouldn't give up on real life quite so quickly. There IS real meaning in real life, but it doesn't come to us from God or gods or anyone's politics or government or company. And the real tough catch is this: it doesn't come from outside us at all! We have to create the meaning of our lives for ourselves."

Absolutely! I definitely don't consider roleplaying, or living as my various personas, to be more important than my physical life -- rather, roleplaying has been to me a means of exploring my self... I have hoped that through it I might uncover the meaning of life; my meaning. What matters to me. After reading your email, though, I have seen that rather than this activity containing the "answers" -- it seems rather foolish to me now -- I won't find "the meaning" ... I have been creating it throughout my life and I continue to do so, though previously unaware. I AM meaning. "In the role-playing games, it seems you have found a vehicle that can empower you to redefine parts of yourself." Roleplaying is just another tool for creation.

I very much agree with your assessment of the future and the past -- "...the future does not exist. It is not real. The past does not exist. It is not real. The present moment is the only thing that is real." I have a thought on this: while the past and the future are not real, nonexistent -- not important in the sway of the present -- are they truly gone? The future exists in my dreams and visions, the past in my memories and experiences. These things are always with me to help me along my path of the present, waiting for when I need them. A part of me. These things are what define me. They are the foundation of my self!

I too am amazed at the human power of creation. We are phenomenal! There is nothing else like us! I am very thankful for my lucky contact with you. It has been very helpful to open my eyes and see what an amazing world we live in -- albeit one with violence, rape, murder, and other hurtful qualities... it is important to realize how amazing our human creating power is. There is so much that is wonderful in this world -- to see that wonder, to remember the power of Human achievement -- that is possibly your greatest gift to me.

I just started playing the trombone -- I have studied music for years, but much of that is the result of my background and environment. The trombone -- this is my own, personal pursuit. Making music, creating beauty, is a great way to revel in Humanity. I like the trombone. It's a simple, basic, plain sound. But it has a lot of character -- I think this will be especially so with the 70 year old horn I ordered off of eBay for $27...

You've helped me out a great deal with sorting through my conscious questions and thoughts and wonders and finally setting many of them to rest within my subconscious. Not gone...just somewhere else, until I need them again. Perhaps the flux will return, but the question behind it isn't unworthy of surfacing from time to time. Perhaps that question, "What really matters?" is a means of taking my latest creation, experiences, and dreams, and just remembering. I truly believe that those experiences and dreams -- and the immense mass of unknown within our subconscious minds (perhaps just some massive log of our past) -- is what defines us. Me, anyway.

You're amazing, David. My restless questions are settled, but rather than feeling content as I had expected, your insights have proven a catalyst for a much greater pursuit of meaning -- and from your thoughts and ideas I will pursue that meaning through creation!

Thank you very much!
JJ
David's response:
JJ,

Cool that I could help in some way. Thanks for letting me know it was appreciated, and keep in touch. Let me know how the Millman book strikes you once you are done reading it.

David

Date: 11-12-03
Subject: Greetings

Hi David,

First and foremost, I want to thank you for courage and consideration in putting together this site. The courage to put your thoughts and feeling out there for all to see cannot be understated. You have provided a gift to others that are experiencing the fear and uncertainty that comes from leaving something that has at times been a provider of comfort and guidance and in many others that of fear, guilt and self hatred. As a Christian, I felt like I was in the perfect codependant relationship. (sarcasm intended)

I come from a Catholic background and for the final two years of my involvement, a more orthodox "old style" conservative Catholocism. I have noticed that none of the posts on the "Conversations" section of your site mention the Catholic Church. Is there a site out there that speaks to Catholics the way yours does to Christians in general?

In all honesty though, the stories are all somewhat the same and do apply to what I have experienced. My disillusion started this past February as I was actually working on religious exercises and contemplating passages in the Bible for at least an hour a day. It was during this time period (approximately four months) that my questions and doubts began to pick up speed and where I felt my mind was being freed. It just wasn't making sense, it wasn't logical and I felt duped. I lost a lot of sleep those first couple of weeks. I must admit, it has been through sites like yours that I have come to fully understand what was happening to me. For that I am thankful.

Sincerely,
OC
David's response:
Hi OC,

Thank you very much for your email. I am delighted if you found my site to be of some help and comfort in your difficult journey. Just try to remember that the hardest part is over. It gets better from here on!

Although there may be one, I am not aware of any specifically ex-Catholic / ex-Christian sites, but you said it best in that it really doesn't matter. The process and the nature of religious deception or self-deception is the same no matter which of the orthodox sects or even religions one has left behind.

It may be tempting to dwell somewhat in the dismay of being duped, but I encourage you to shake it all off like some old useless coat and don't give it any more of your personal energy or power. The real world is too amazing and mysterious not to explore and enjoy without having to worry about the old constraints that we once lived with. Hopefully, this is how it is for you, too.

Please write anytime, OC, and thanks for the comments. I wish you joy and peace in your new path!

Best regards,
David

David,

Thank you for your reply. You said it best when you mentioned that the hardest part is over. More than anything else, I am pleased that this change came to me during moments of Christian meditation and not during a time of rebellion or trial. Yes, there were things I read and saw that had messages in them encouraging thought. Truth is, that is what seems to be the foundation. Thought.

The more I see controversial issues played out in the media day in and day out, the more I see those whose thoughts and actions are driven by religious beliefs contradict their "concrete" beliefs and further strengthen my decision. It's amazing what opening one's eyes to a greater reality has done for me. And yet I know, this is only the beginning.

At 35, I feel young yet more mature than I did when under the authority of a church and its hierarchy. I always felt like a child then. One who couldn't be trusted to make his own decisions. Instead of continuing on the path of making mistakes (and I made plenty) and learning and growing, I subjected myself to a path that assured safety and a sense of security, albeit false. Outside the circle, I only felt disdain and threatened by "the world". Today, I am in awe of the world and our ability to create and imagine.

The only thing that seems to scare me these days is what is happening in the news. Terrorism and the so called war against it (although real), appears to me to be men intent on playing their part in fulfilling a prophecy and fighting a war with their religious beliefs about good and evil, us and them, right and wrong. Why do they refuse to see any other side or option? Well, the same reasons I didn't while immersed in religious beliefs...it has its limits, boundaries and there rarely is another side.

As a Catholic and an American, I have been doubly cursed with the prevailing opinion that we are the best and only real way of doing things. It is culturally ingrained in both groups.

Christmas troubles me some. I do enjoy the season, the music and the beauty. The music on the local classical station has already started playing Christmas music, some of which reminds me of being in Church. I believe there is a way to enjoy that and the positive messages that can arise.

On that note. I will wish you the best and continue on my way....

OC
Date: 11-29-03
Subject: Church of Christ

I just happened on your site and have browsed some of it. I, too, was raised in the C of C. In the past year, I have finally taken the last step and become an atheist. I am almost 50 and it has taken me all this time to overcome what I was taught as a child. It's hard to explain to someone not raised in the C of C exactly how powerful its hold can be on your life. After all, it has that layer of rationalism that makes it see so LOGICAL....on the surface, anyway.

Even now, I cannot admit this to my mother, who is a very devout C of C believer.
How did you deal with this issue with your family?

Thanks
TI
David's response:
Dear TI,

Thanks so much for your email. As you must know, I sympathize completely with your choice and your situation. You are right about the layer of rationalism or logic that the Church of Christ uses in its structure. It seems right as long as one is looking only at the structure that is presented and does not look beyond it. Specifically, it is when we look beyond the Bible to find its sources and to place it properly in history (that is: Late!) that we can determine that the logical system of the Church of Christ, or that of any of the other sects or churches, is simply irrelevant. Once the props are pulled out from under, the entire structure collapses.

You asked how I have dealt with my family and I will gladly tell you in hopes it may provide some perspective or give you some starting point for your own thinking. First, I am very fortunate to have married someone who is on a parallel pathway to mine. Many new freethinkers who have written to me are in the position of dealing with a still devout spouse and children. That can be really tough.

I am, however, in the same boat you are when it comes to my mother (my Dad has accommodated Christianity, but has never had more than a casual interest in religion). My mother (a very intelligent and sincere woman) has backed away from the Church of Christ itself, but is still a sincere believer in God and Christ and reads her Bible all the time. I decided that it would not be necessary for me to simply go to her and say, "By the way, Mom, I'm an atheist now." I also knew that I could not explain to her in any single session all that I had learned over many years that had led to my paradigm shift and get her to see that pathway herself. We had not talked for several years about where my thinking had gone after writing my Christian book (which she so agreed with and still upholds), and she asked me to come visit about it.

I simply told her that I had travelled very far in my thinking and that it had led to some unexpected places. By indicating how much larger of scope this new viewpoint was, I hinted that this might involve non-belief without saying so directly, and I introduced her to some of the things I had learned about the historical underpinnings of the Bible (such as its roots in Zoroastrianism and Vedism). I told her that it was a journey that I had had to make alone for now, but one that I would be happy to share with her if she wanted to know more. I told her that I could not take her from start to finish in one session, but that she would need to take it one step at a time, just as I had done. I would be very happy to give her something to begin with to read.

I gave her the Paul Williams Roberts book: In Search of the Birth of Jesus/The real journey of the Magi, because it was the fist book to open my eyes to the crucial influences of Zoroastrianism and it is very readable. So far, that is as far as we have gone, and I know she has not had a chance to read much of it due to illnesses.

It's a bit of a balancing act, because I did not wish to lie or be untrue to my current self, but I did not want to overwhelm or disturb her with blatant freethinker labels or conclusions, either. I didn't want her to have a knee-jerk reaction and think that her son had just "gone atheist" on her without understanding that the process of doing so has been a deep and fulfilling one that must not be dismissed out of hand. I hope that she will think that if I have found it so worthwhile that I would have made this change in view, that, perhaps, it may be something for her to investigate as well rather than just dismiss it (and my views) immediately.

Whatever similar situations present themselves to us, though, I firmly believe that we must be true to ourselves and authentic in who we are. On the other hand, I don't think it is necessary (nor many times wise) to flagrantly announce all that we are and all that we think to anyone and everyone, even to close relatives. Some things must be experienced and some things must be earned. Before we offer a path to earn them, it is important, I think, to make sure the person truly desires to know. Many will not so desire, and would be harmed or disturbed by knowing all of what and who we are vis-a-vis religion and belief. In my instance, the jury is still out on my Mother, so we will just have to see.

Well, that was a bit long-winded, but I hope it may help somewhat to at least have another person's view and experience on this. I appreciate your browsing my site, Tony, and if you do have time, please read the rest of my essays and things and let me know how they strike you now. I hope your journey has become a positive one, as there is much joy out here once the old skins are shed. I'm about your age, and I know how strange it is to metamorph after so long in one form.

Joy and peace,
David
Date:11-29-03
Subject: website

You have a nice web site. I am trying to get on the ring myself. Check out [URL given] my web site. I was a pretty committed born again christian but the contradictions got too me. JD
David's response:
Hi JD,

Thanks for writing and for checking out my site. I appreciate your comments. I agree with your asessment about God. I have some suspicion that there is something underlying the organized nature of life in this universe, but I, too, am certain that this thing is nothing like the God of orthodox religions. It is a true Mystery, and worth pursuing, but without the power-centered constructs of mankind. I also agree with your comment [on his website - DC]:

> I CAME TO REALIZE THAT INSTEAD OF ASKING WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFE, I SHOULD ASK WHAT IS THE MEANING OF MY LIFE?

I believe that life-meaning is created from within, and is never something that is dictated by what is external to us. I see from your site that you have had quite an "interesting" life. It looks, however, like you've found the secret to living now in every present moment, and that is a true accomplishment. Many who do not understand this principle still live as slaves rather than as warriors.

Best wishes on your journey, and thanks again for the email.
David

as a matter of fact

Frankly I hope there is a God but there might not be. If God were to exist He or she would certainly by his very nature not have to conform to how the bible describes her. If a being understood the concept of infinity, omnipotence, etc it doeasn't seem like that would make us jump thru such a narrow hoop to get to them. JD

Date: 11-30-03
Subject: voice

One of your poems confirmed what I long suspected. In 1984 I was in a real jam of my own doing. I could see no way out, so I called out to God.

I got an answer and the voice that answered led me to make serious changes in my behavior and attitude. Looking back I realize now that it was me and I told myself my only choice was to change or suffer.
Two years ago I was diagnosed with an incurable blood cancer, I pretty much have learned to live with it, but your other poem about death gave me another perspective. JED
David's response:
Hi JED,

It is most remarkable and gratifying that you found some of my poems to be meaningful to you. It takes a fundamental shift in perspective to recognize that inner "voice" as something other than God's and to properly reassign it to our own selves. Only then, can we use that voice rightly to live as warriors rather than as slaves.

Regardless of our present state of health, not one of us can truly control the length of our stay in this form, and I hope you may have found some connection and usefulness in the philosophy of Nowness, or the value of the present moment. It is ever all we have, but it is full of possibilities and can be molded to our uses to serve our joyfulness. I have found a lot of meaning in Carlos Casteneda's projection of Death as an entity that is always "just over our left shoulder." It is always there and we catch glimpses of it, but we are instructed not to fear it, but rather to "use Death as an advisor." In this way, we are reminded from day to day and moment to moment that each moment of life is truly precious.

Thank you again for writing, and I wish you the very best in your journey.

Joy and peace.
David

[NOTE: As he is webmaster of his own ex-Christian site, I have left in identifiers to Clint Clark]

Date: 11-29-03
Subject: History of Settlement Religions

Dear Website Editor,

My Name is Clint Clark and I‚ve developed a small website that may be an interesting link addition to your site. I call it "Religion Detoxification." One of its features is "The Logical Ten Commandments."
It also has some history on the development of Settlement Religion along with some important points about Oral Tradition. The address is:
http://www.artdsm.com/religiondetoxification/

Thank you for your consideration

Sincerely,
Clint Clark
David's response:
Hi Clint,

Thanks for the reference to your site. I'll be happy to add your link. I really like your approach with your Logical 10 Commandments. Stripping off the fluffy words and restating the purpose in practical, casual language helps us understand what the religious system was for and how it came to be.

You may be right about the "Divine Madness" idea that many of the prophets were actually schizophrenics. I have found much compelling evidence that leads me to believe that much of the prophesy and visions were actually induced by these people partaking of psychoactive plants (what we would call hallucinogens - a loaded and misleading modern concept). This was very common in the old religious societies, and may have actually been the genesis of religion.

I wanted to tell you, also, that I really like your "definition of personal spirituality". Is that your own quote? and can I quote you? It's really right on.

Thanks for writing, and good journey!

David


Thanks David.

And yes, I wrote this definition of my Personal Spirituality and you are welcome to use it as a quote:
---
A Definition of Personal Spirituality

by Clinton S. Clark - 2003

"My essence of being, entity (or spirit if you prefer) is naturally aware that all things seen and unseen in the universe are related and connected to each other; ..that the grandeur and magnificence of our universe is divine, therefore the Earth is sacred; ..and knowing that the Earth is sacred, I know that we live and rest in a sacred place each day; ..that human beings occur naturally as a part of life on our planet; ..that human beings are one of many animal nations on our planet and that all animal nations have an instinctual wisdom of morality related to the continuance of life; ..that a lack of memorization skills, tool use, tool making, tool invention, or personal possessions does not infer a lack of intelligence or emotion; ..that phenomenon and the exceptional remain mysterious until they are understood in full; ..that the First Truth in our universe is "Things get together to exist"and therefore, the Second Truth in our universe is that "The smallest subdivision of anything cannot exist by itself."; ..that a small amount of biological material from one person joined with another person to create me; ..that the genetic material in my body is more than 150,000 years old which means that a small part of me has been around for many thousands of years or more; ..that I am unique and special to myself and to the planet; ..that belief systems, which include regular worship services that seek to contradict these truths, are Settlement Religions and do not support Personal Spirituality."
---

And again, thanks for your kind words. . . .

Sincerely,
Clint


Clint's definition of personal spirituality is a terrific way to close our communications from 2003! Click the next button below to continue with new letters and responses from 2004.

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