Conversations -
Questions, Answers, Observations, and a few Kudos
Continued
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2(begins below) 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1
Correspondence from 2003
Page: 2
Subject: Thank you!
I live in the Bible Belt....where the first question people ask you when they meet you is "What church do you belong to?".
It is somewhat comforting and reassuring to know that one is not the only sane person in the asylum.
T
David's Response:
Hi T!
Thanks for the email. I always appreciate hearing from anyone who has found my site to be of some value.
Yeah, there are a few of us 'sane' types out here. It seems that the internet is a practical way for many non-religious people to associate and communicate, since there are usually only a sparce few in any one locale.
Thanks for writing, and good journey!
Regards,
David
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003
Subject: Interesting site.
I'm not sure why I'm bothering to write since you've already closed off any contact with the other side of the debate. But you write so well. Your images of the Grand Canyon are very good. I plan to visit for the first time this summer and will now expect the "shock" you suggest is waiting for me at the railing.
Having converted in the opposite direction at age 50, from secular rationalism to ecstactic Christianity I can see parallels in the conversion process itself. One knows intimately and hates intimately the faith that is lost and thinks very highly indeed of the faith that is gained. An interesting dynamic.
Here's one big/little thing you're profoundly wrong about: that what humans create comes from humans.
I have studied this all my life, not through books or intellecutal investigation but through the internal processes themselves. The music comes from somewhere beyond me, the stories come from somewhere deeper than me. And I am always surprised by what comes out from within. There is no way "I" am creating this. And it is beyond some hackneyed concept of a "collective unconscious."
So, I find your deification of human consciousness amusing. Why not give up every thought of the sacred? Take it straight up, stare into the abyss like a man. I once did.
Peace,
DS.
David's Response:
DS,
Perhaps I'm not sure why I'm bothering to respond, as neither my site, nor my interests are really involved in debating the issues. I am more concerned with the process of paradigm change and wish to offer support and whatever guidance I can to others going through it. However, I will say that I probably align with you more than you might think, especially about creativity. There is much and great mystery about the genesis of creativity and about life itself, of course. As a rationalist, I would say that there are two possibilities.
First, it could be - yes it could! - that there is a God or divine being or essence or something from which all such life and creativity flows forth. I once believed it so, but I believed in a form and format of what that being was that was prepared for me by others and was spoon fed to me from the cradle on. It was only after bootstrapping myself out of the consensus ideas about God and religion that I became aware of how provincial my concepts were. There is a vast history of religion preceding the Bible that stretches back tens of thousands of years. Once that is studied in any depth at all, it is amazingly obvious how the Jewish texts are but an extreme latecomer in the history of religious texts, and how they repeat all the older myths without really adding much that was original. The reprecussion of this is that we do NOT know anything about such a God. If the texts are not literally God's Word, and if God does not appear empirically to us or interact directly (and I mean DIRECTLY) with us today, then it follows that we know nothing of him, her, or it. You may claim that your ecstatic experiences are proof (or proof enough for you) that God is. I could direct you to a thousand others who claim exactly the same for other paradigms of belief - proving nothing on anyone's side of the debate. Personal internal experience is not proof.
Importantly, in this view, we are not left with "no God", but rather with "we don't know anything about such a God". That is my stance. I simply do not know, but I refuse to acknowledge a "faith based" religious stance on a God that cannot or does not show up.
The second possiblility is that what we create does indeed come from within us. You may say that is impossible, and I understand the response. I, too, feel that much of what I create is not something "I came up with". However, there is some fascinating and important research being done now into the nature of the brain that may shed some light on this. I believe that we are something of a composite being. That part of us that is the up-front cognitive "I" is only one part of us. There are other aspects to our brain being that are hidden and do not speak the rational English that "I" speak. Dreams, visions, music, art, emotions, all may be the product of such parts of us. It may be that we are much more powerful and potent than we have any concept of right now. We may perceive of ourselves as the light on the front of the speeding locomotive, not realizing that this huge machine and source of power is not only right behind us, but is actually a part of who we are.
The one "religion" that comes closest to dealing with such things is the oldest of them - shamanism. This is where I am researching today to find the doorways into new knowledge. I have closed no doors to new information, only to old and discredited structures. You say I should "Take it straight up, stare into the abyss like a man." That is just precisely what I am doing. I am not retreating to the comfort and familiarity of man's invented faiths, nor am I retreating into staid, pessimistic atheism. I am taking what has been called the way of the peaceful warrior - seeking new knowledge where it can only be found, at the frontier. I seek new knowledge for only one purpose now, and that is to determine for myself what is real.
I no longer really expect to find "proof" of or against the existence of God. In assessing or utilizing forms of shamanism, I am not jumping from one religion to another. Rather, I follow the perspective that warriors believe in many things - and they believe in none of them. This means that belief for them is just another tool for analysis of what is real. I hope to be saying more about these things in future essays or evolutions of my websites.
Thanks for your compliments on my writing.
Regards,
David
Date:Wednesday, April 30, 2003
David,
Thanks for your long thoughtful reply. I'm in the middle of a huge writing project, but I want to reply to your email.
However, I wanted first to compliment you on your openness. So many in your position of having abandoned a faith, close doors so firmly as if to intentionally blind themselves to what they formerly felt or knew. You're not doing this, and I salute you for it.
I also wanted to say I took a look at your creative website after writing my first email. Nice stuff there. But it was also interesting to note that you've carried a lot of the spiritual mythos into your art, both in the computer images and in the photography. So I guess atheism truly isn't your bag.
Before I returned to Christianity (only 18 months ago after a 30 year lapse) I got interested in "new" religious forms. My thought process was something like this: I desperately need a religious or spiritual framework, because nothing in my life works. But obviously, Christianity (which really screwed me up at age 19) can't possibly have any meaning, it's 2000 years old, born in a superstitious age and in major need of revision to reflect all that the human race has learned since the Enlightenment, especially what we've learned in the last 100 years. I began to read the very interesting but fairly sparse genre of what I'd call "scientific spirituality" those few books written by scientists who've got a bent for the mystical or ecstactic. I figured someone has got to be working the "new" religion angle, someone has to be searching for and perhaps beginning to find the New Truth.
For years I've have this half baked idea, that in the future, hopefully the not too distant future (because the survival of the race is not a given) some brilliant physicist/brain researcher/theologian will come up with a Unified General Theory that ties it all together, all of creation, from the macro to the micro with the human being included. In this theory, love will be one of the mathematically described and quantified realities. Likewise gravity, grace, time, courage, etc. Do you get my drift? Like you I really can't believe that the universe is random, that it evolved from nothing and is headed nowhere. If you look at the Universe as an artist, with wide open eyes, you are hit by the tremendous meaning of it all. You may not be able to say what it means, but that it does mean something seems absolutely inescapeable, and absolutely wonderful! The hardest thing for me to believe is the core faith of atheism and nihlism, that this huge something sprang from nothing. So, at some very deep visionary level, there must be rules tying it all together, rules man can discover.
But then I read G.K. Chesterton's "Orthodoxy" and many other Christian books and my half baked ideas about that Unified General Theory deflated and were swept under the rug. I began to search for a church and found the light coming through the stained glass windows so amazing. Now I've found a church home (a good one that suits me) and I sing Hallelujah in a high harmony as the worship band plays. And while I'm never going to give up my intellect which seems to want to constantly poke holes in everything, really, the worship band is more fun, more immediate and ultimately I think, will get me there much more directly.
The best thing I got from those scientists in the books who were struggling at the very fuzzy edges of the theory I'm describing was one word: Humility. If there is a G-d, then what we must not lose sight of is how small we are compared to G-d. Our intellects may not be up to the task of discovering the huge and extremely complex relations G-d has built into the universe, though I believe G-d wants us to try. But our hearts I believe are capable of comprehending.
DS
Date: Wed, 7 May 2003
Subject: newrational.com
The concept
of your site is an incredibly valuable one. You and I seem to have traveled
a very similar road.
I am writing because I think your site would be infinitely expanded in value
if it were to become a community, with forums and interaction... is this in
the vision for your site? If not, do you have any idea where a site of this
nature might already exist?
Thanks.
David's Response:
Hi there,
Thank you so much for the email. I am glad you found my site to be of interest and value. I actually did have a forum set up in association with the site when I launched it, but no one ever came to it, so I closed it until such time as my traffic seemed to warrant it again. There are several other forums dealing with leaving Christianity. One I check out every now and then is:
Recovering from Religion
http://pub76.ezboard.com/finlakeshfrm6
another one I'm not as familiar with is:
Walk Away from Fundamentalism
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/freeboard.cfm?id=319472
Check out some of the links in my links page, or do a search on "ex-christian" or "xtian" and you should find lots of other resources.
Hope that helps. Best wishes for your journey.
Regards,
David
Date: Sat, 24 May 2003
Subject: Experiential myth-religion & entheogens
David,
It really doesn't make sense to "leave Christianity", if Christianity is conceived as yet another expression of transcendent experiential knowledge. One can only leave literalist, lower Christianity.
....
Esoteric Christianity is mythically allegorized altered-state experiencing and is legit; literalist Christianity isn't legit but is merely the entryway for pre-initiates, at best.
-- M
....
David's Response:
Hi M,
Thanks for writing. I do agree that it is "literalist, lower Christianity" that I am mostly addressing when I speak of "leaving". I do understand that the forms of Christianity that exist today are but the vestigial and disconnected first level mysteries of what was once a deep and rich system that would bring an initiate eventually to direct experience of the divine. I also feel that this was, not only for the Christians, but for the Greeks and the Zoroastrians, and back to the Vedic Brahmans, etc., rooted originally in the use of entheogens or plant teachers.....
Personally, I don't like to label the "mythically allegorized altered-state experience" as in any way "Christian" any more than I would label it as "Kabbalistic" or "Heliopolitan". Perhaps the only appropriate generic term is Shamanistic. I suppose such overlays are useful to many (witness the Santo Daime), but for me, I'd rather take it as straight as I can find it. Don Juan said it best, that the warrior believes in many things - and in none of them.
....
Thank you again for taking the time to write, and best wishes in your journey.
Regards,
David
Date: Thu,
29 May 2003
Subject: Thoghts and Questions
Hi David,
I had a bit of a browse of your site and it struck me as kind of brave to
stick your neck out and put up a site that may well attract unkind comments
from multiple directions.
My own journey is somewhat similar apart from the point that I have not totally
rejected the idea and reality of God. I have moved toward the idea that the
way in which church has "been done" for the hundreds of years is
not as it was intended. The thing that keeps me holding to God as a valid
belief is an inability to believe that the existance of the world could have
occured without a plan by some intellegent being. When I witnessed the birth
of my first child I was struck by the wonder of the process of conception
to birth and beyond and even now can not believe that it came to be with some
deliberate intent on the part of an intelligent creator.
While I understand disillusionment with the nature of the practice of Christian
belief, I wonder if there isn't still a place for a real God. I guess your
journey has brought you to a place where, since there is no eternity beyond
mortal life, there is no need for a saviour?
While I
can to some extent see the logic in the process of your journey, I can't say
I really understand your conclusion (or present position).
Journey on... and all the best.
A
David's Response:
Hi A,
Thank you very much for your email. I always appreciate hearing from those who find my site interesting or useful in some way.
I do understand the seeming necessity for some kind of creator / organizer / sustainer entity. My stance now is that I am completely ignorant of what that entity is. I cannot assign a name (such as God) to it, nor can I ascertain anything about it such as who, where, how composed, nor, of course, why? All such information in the past came from my acceptance of the proclaimed scriptures as representing contact by this entity. Now that that has been completely undermined by my continuing education, I have no other source of data. I only have what I can observe - which includes the impression that there is a larger conciousness or source of life and organization "out there" somewhere (or perhaps "within there"?).
This is the direction of the search now, but I can never again accept the word of any human (alive or dead) as to the true nature of that entity.
You are correct in assuming that I have no use for a belief in a "saviour" - as there is no data from the Entity, there can be no constructions of social or moral interactions with It. We are really left to our own devices as to how to live and where to draw boundaries between us. Without direct data, indeed, we must assume for all practical purposes that such an Entity does not exist. I think that the manifestation of well-structured human societies such as in your country and mine is evidence of how well human beings alone have been able to develop those kinds of things that lead to a decent life (understanding that many people have yet to gain this standard of living).
I appreciate the comment about being brave to stick my neck out, but that is an expression of the honesty I now require in my thinking about these life philosophies. I feel like I have awakened from a long sleep and now I can breathe the clear air. Perhaps, I can help others to do the same thing. In any case, we are a social species and I'd rather have conversations than to simply isolate myself in my understandings.
Thanks again for writing.
Regards,
David
Date: Thu,
05 Jun 2003
Subject: A Disillusioned Friend.
I would first
of all like to extend my warm and heartfelt greetings to you.
I had happened to visit your insightful website one day whilst "living"
in my daily, disenchanted state of consciousness. Over the course of the last
several years, I have experienced many changes in my psychological and emotional
views of the world and life itself -- namely, I have realized that my hopes
and dreams are nothing more than what they are. Reality and the dream are
two separate entities. The careful thoughts on your website to a great deal
run many direct parallels of my own thinking as I have struggled these years
with issue of the dream versus reality. I would like to share a few of my
thoughts, in the hope that you might also share some of your own, or that
they may help you in your own personal journey.
I should
introduce myself a bit more. I am a seventeen year old young man by the name
of JJ. I once was a boy who was hopeful, sociable, and shining bright like
a star. I believed in God, and Heaven, and the Bible. Unfortunately for that
little boy, the reality is that Time kills. That little boy has grown up and
faded away...he remains only as a memory, a dream of the past -- not unlike
the dead. As Time progressed, the little boy grew up, the star faded, and
the reality of the world hit him like a cold wave, washing away his foolish
idealisms.
The world is, to a great deal, a place for cold-blooded killers. War and hatred
eat away at the very fabric of human existence; fanaticism brings time and
time again brother against brother (or in a politically correct world, sibling
against sibling.) Since the beginning of Time, this has been so. Cain and
Able of the Bible are one such example. Jealousy, envy, and hatred are the
fuels of these problems. However, I feel that religion is equally responsible.
Here one must define religion. What is religion? Religion, to me, is the fanaticism
in which a person will no longer accept ideas that contradict their own. Religion
is the ignorant condition in which a person will begin rejecting any fact
or evidence in favor of clinging to their own anchored beliefs for the sake
of personal stability. Notably, in my opinion, the main source of this problematic
condition is the church. ....
The true thought that I wish to express is not how to, or justifying the destruction
of the Church. My true thought is neither to eradicate peoples' personal beliefs
or opinions. I don't know why we're here -- no one does, really...some people
might just try to dig some answers out of a man-written book called the Bible,
but I think that there is a true value in finding one's own personal answers.
Regardless of the existence of a greater force, humanity must first serve
itself before it can think about serving anything else. If God does exist,
could any human truly know or understand such an entity's thoughts? If God
did have wishes or desires for humanity to fulfill, how would we be able to
in the midst of all our fighting and slaughter of our siblings; in the midst
of our stealing, raping, and childish bickering?
....
I often feel
as if I live partially within my memories of the past and my dreams for the
future, and partially within the realm of reality. I don't really know anything
-- I'm just a human being. And being is what I do. If God exists, I am an
agnostic in that I will never accept that I could comprehend the entity's
existence or thoughts. If God exists, I do not believe that man can correctly
interpret Its wishes for humanity. The reality is, humankind is too easily
corrupted, and falls all too quickly and all too often to forces such as Jealousy,
Envy, Hatred, and Selfishness.
I wonder if it isn't better to live alone in one's dreams and memories than
surrounded by a world of illusioned fanatics killing each other left and right
to no end or any realization of the reality.
David's Response:
Hi JJ,
Thank you very much for writing to me. I appreciate it.
I understand the kinds of feelings about the human world that you expressed. It can often seem like all humanity is depraved and without hope of any kind of redemption, and that there is nothing to be done but hide and dream. I hope I can influence you somewhat to look beyond the emotional response we have to that view of life. There is obviously much evil in this world, but there is also much that is noble, good, wholesome, and creative. The world mankind has built is not perfect by any means, but it is quite a marvel. I find it head-shakingly strange that humanity has for so long cheated itself of any self-acknowledgment of its own accomplishments, as it has always seemed to want to ascribe the results to the influence of God or gods. Everything that is bad in the human world is of human making, and everything that is good in the human world is also of human making. We have a choice in what we do or make or support.
I don't know why we are here, either. It is a great question and one that most people give pat, religious answers to. It is a sign of healthy honesty for you to say "I don't know why." There may never be a satisfactory answer to that question, but the pursuit of information that has to do with the Whys is a noble and enjoyable philosophical pursuit. I recommend it highly!
You said that you see reality and dreams as two separate entities. Have you ever thought that it may be that one is dependant on the other? That is, our reality is only the result of what we dream? Many advanced philosophies hold to that very idea. If this is so, then what we dream is very important, for it leads to the very reality that we live in day to day. If we dream/create a terrible and depressing world or life, we may very well fulfill that dream and live in sorrow and dread. If we decide (critical word!) to dream/create a whole and healthy world with learning and creativity, that may very well be our destiny instead.
I choose the latter for myself, and I have found that an honest Humanist approach to life is a rewarding and joy-filled way of living. It frees me to discover new knowledge and try new philosophies. One thing I have learned is that Time does not kill. It simply alters and evolves things. That idealistic little boy you once were is not dead, for you remember him and you embody still all that he was. He advises you now from the inner places and you use him as a point of reference for what you are becoming. I know that you have undergone a complete change of view. I did the same thing, but I think we should honor our past selves and use them to help us see where to go and how to be in each unfolding Now.
Here is something to consider. Don't be a human being; be a human doing! It is our birthright and destiny to learn and create, and the best revenge on those who live small, mean, restricted lives is to live ours as openly, healthily, creatively, and as full of richness as we can. Perhaps by example, we shall influence those around us who are primitive and shallow, and if not, well then, we have lived our lives well and with joy.
There is something to be said about distancing oneself from those who are mean and violent. I avoid people and places that foster and respond to those values. However, I don't think we should just give up and become hermits or something. There is so much we can do and so many people who need to hear of some other options for their lives. I hope you will consider ways to shape your life to be positive and, perhaps, helpful to some of those around you.
There is an advanced philosophy of life that you might like to read about. I have begun to adopt its principals for myself. One way it is known is as "The Way of The Peaceful Warrior", which is the title of a book by Dan Millman. Find the book and see if it resonates with you. As a warrior (of the kind this way is about), I am happy without apparent reason and filled with personal power and a desire to know the unknown. This way is not for everyone, but you may find it a valuable gem, especially in the vacuum that exists after leaving traditional religion.
Thanks again, JJ, for writing, and please do write anytime. I wish you the very best in your important journey. You are not alone.
Peace and Joy to you!
David
....
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003
Subject: disillusionment
How would
you define disillusionment?
David's Response:
Hi,
Have you read my site?
Here is an excerpt concerning the term "disillusionment" from one of my essays:
"For those of us who have come out of a religious life to the acceptance of disbelief and of a rational world view, the word disillusionment is uniquely appropriate, but in a new and positive way. In fact, it is the perfect term for us.
When we dissect this word, the root is, of course, “illusion”. To be “dis-illusioned”, therefore, is to not be deceived by the illusion. Finally, it is to reject the illusion in favor of what is real."
Regards,
David
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003
Subject: Newbie
David,
Just discovered your site. I bet you get lots of emailers that say that. However,
they may not tell you that they were also brought up in the Church of Christ.
I have not read anything on your sight in depth yet, but I am looking forward
reading a lot of it. My hat is off to you for taking the time to share what
you have been through in you transition to reality. Letting go of faith in
the Bible has been taking place with myself for a couple of years now. The
main difficulty has been that I have had to rethink everything. Because a
person just not realize how much of they think is based on their religious
beliefs until those beliefs leave.
MF
David's Response:
Hi MF,
Thanks for taking the time to write. I'm glad you found my site, and I do hope you take the time to read some of the essays there. I completely understand about having to rethink and change Everything when going through this process of dis-illusionment with religion. It requires a complete re-evaluation of who and what we are as beings, doesn't it? That can be overwhelming and frightening, but it can also represent a marvellous opportunity to actively recast and redefine ourselves based on authentic information and values. You are in this process, and I have been doing this for a while, myself. Most people who were never believers do not experience this kind of metamorphosis, and, of course, those who remain illusioned by their religions never even conceptualize such a change.
I don't know how this process seems to you at this point, but I can tell you that beyond the initial discomforts there is only wonder and joy in making such changes. I really do feel like a totally different person than who I was five years ago, and so very much more alive!
Best wishes on your important journey, and feel free to write me again when you've had a chance to check out some of my essays and things, ok?
....
Regards,
David
Date:Friday, June 13, 2003
David,
Thanks for the quick and detailed reply. I have been reading over your reverse testimony and one thing that really strikes me is your description of being out of a box. That is exactly what I have been thinking about myself. That I am now out of a box. And the analogy if very fitting I think.
....
MF
Date: Sun,
15 Jun 2003
Subject: disillusionment
David, I recently discovered your website after typing "disillusionment" into a google search. I'm still trying to sort things out, but it is nice to know there are other folks I can bounce ideas off of. I bring the concept to nearly every aspect of my life, not just religion. I feel like I'm experiencing some kind of metamorphosis, so to speak, in reference to my view of the world.
I'm not giving up on God, however. Things happen everyday to keep me believing there is something out there. Somebody or something is "running the show." Maybe, maybe not, but I can't explain coincidence. Coincidences, big and small, can sometimes seem too odd to deny their plausibility.
Anyway, I'm having fun trying to make sense of it all. I plan to read through your site and those linked. Maybe by the time I'm dead I'll finally figure out what it's all about.
peace, M....
David's Response:
Hi M,
Thanks for writing! I do hope you will take the time to read some of my site.
I, too, sense or extrapolate that there may be some intelligence behind the curtain of the universe. My point of view now is simply that the character of God that the orthodox religions place on that intelligence is man-made and has no connection, scientific or historical, to whatever that intelligence really is. There are some more primitive or direct approaches to gaining information about this entitiy that I am currently investigating, which is exciting and enjoyable, but I do not expect to get hard answers in my lifetime.
That is why you will find me go on a bit about the importance of living life right now - the supreme importance of the present moment. When we leave the small box called "religion" behind and begin to live fully and authentically in the present, it truly is like a metamorphosis. I am a completely different person than who I was five or six years ago, before I made the changes in my thinking.
Best wishes for your important journey, and I'm glad to hear you are having fun with it. That is a sign of an advanced philosophy of life!
Bounce off of me anytime you want to.
Regards,
David
Date:Monday, June 16, 2003
David,
Thank you for responding so quickly. I've been reading a lot of books about the brain and how it works, etc. I'm fascinated by the concept of emotion. I've become wary of my emotions and try not to trust them, however the fact remains that I experience these emotions whether I like it or not. I know (think rather) that emotions are really nothing more than electrical impulses in the brain telling the body to feel or act a certain way. So, if there is any truth to the above statement then a person with great control of their mind could deem emotions as inadmissable. Does this make any sense?
Ideally I'd like to be able to train myself and my brain to operate at maximum capacity. I feel like this idea of disillusionment has led me to this exploration of my head.
I feel like I could go on for hours, but then you probably wouldn't talk to me anymore. As I'm sure you did, I've got a lot of questions that I know I'm not likely to have answered. Also, I like your philosophy of living for the day, etc. Sometimes I feel like I spend too much time thinking and not enough time living. Anyway, that's enough for now. Have a great day.
peace, M
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1
joy@newrational.com
