Conversations -
Questions, Answers, Observations, and a few Kudos
Continued
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3(begins below)
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1
Correspondence from 2002
Page: 3
Date:
Mon, 2 Sep 2002
Subject: www.newrational.com and its linnks
David,
Thanks for posting your website on DUSA Message Board/Back to Questing....
If you've read many of my posts, you know that I'm a questor who continues
the unending quest as a Christian. You and several others who routinely post
on the questing board exhibit disillusionment with Christianity. Is it possible
that your reactions are not to Christ, Christianity, or God, per se, but rather
a strong dislike for what often masquerades as Christianity? A response to
individuals claiming Christianity who are little more than power freaks seeking
constantly to control the lives of others by jerking the "religion string."
In my thinking, and this has been discussed several times on the thread, Jesus,
the prophets, and others can actually be identified as Shamen (Shamans: which
is plural?). The visions I've received as a result of questing tend to confirm
my belief in Christ. In my love and devotion to Him, I've found the freedom
and liberty to continuously advance along the questing path. The inscription
on the front (south-facing) facade of the Main Building at UT states, "Ye
shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."
All of us who follow this path are, indeed, seeking that truth-based freedom.
Hopefully, I've not been too preachy!
C
David's
Response:
Hello C
Thanks for taking the time to correspond. Your point about responding to the
"power freaks" is a valid one, but what I have discovered in my
search for the true nature and history of religion is that the entire structure
of the Christian Church (and the Judaic "church" before it) is nothing
but the manifestation of such power mongers. In fact, this trend goes all
the way back to ancient India and the invasion of the Aryans from northern
lands into the very old Dravidic religion / culture that had existed in the
subcontinent for thousands of years prior. The old worship of God and Goddess
was replaced by the forced worship of only the male god forms in order to
establish the control of a male priesthood. This old Aryan Vedic philosophy
has evolved in India into the Hinduism we see today, and it also worked its
way across westward into the tenants of Zoastrianism and eventually into the
Levites who established Judaism and then Christianity (and then Islam, and
then Mormon, and then....)
Was Christ a shaman? That is an interesting idea, but one that I cannot really
play too much with because I do not have enough information on the historical
person in order to know. I do think that the historical person was someone
quite different from the classical image presented in the Bible, and it is
the Bible source material that has become problematic for me. If the only
picture we have of Jesus is from the Bible, then we are looking at a severely
manipulated presentation produced by those who would use such a tool for political
/ power purposes. The Christian "New Testament" is only still around
today because of the historical oddity of Constantine and his decision to
"adopt" Christianity as a political tool for himself. If it had
not been for that, we might still have something of Jesus, but I feel it would
have been extremely gnostic in nature, and, perhaps, this leads back to the
idea of Christ as a shaman.
My personal best guess is that he was a militant Jew who got caught up in
the Scicarri movement and was used by his fellows to promote certain ideas.
I do think he survived the "execution" and went on, perhaps to India
where much evidence exists today to indicate his presence there.
Naturally, I could not speak to nor gainsay any personal experience you have
had in your vision quests. I would not question the nature of such visions
as they come to you, for they seem to be a power unto themselves. Perhaps
we all take in this same energy and shape it according to our own needs and
personalities when we embark on such a quest. I shall be doing this soon in
the deserts of Utah, and will let you all know how it "shapes" for
me.
Some excellent books you might want to read, if you don't know about them
already, are:
Power, Politics, and the Making of the Bible - Robert B. Coote & Mary
P. Coote
Dancing Shadows - Aoumiel
The Jesus Mysteries - Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy
In Search of the Birth of Jesus/The real journey of the Magi - Paul William
Roberts
Thanks again for writing -- do so anytime.
Regards,
David
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002
Subject: Thank You
I was reading what you wrote on the page "Behold This Day". It was profoundly moved. I just wanted to thank you so much for writing it. Leaving Christianity sometimes I felt my life was empty, but it's not empty it's amazing. Life is amazing and I am alive and this moment can be anything! Anything I could imagine it to be, and that is such a beautiful thing. It was so aliquotly, beautifully written and I just wanted to thank you for your profound words. Behold this day that will dawn tomorrow, I know I will behold it and love this moment now. I just must keep reminding myself, this moment is all I have, this is the moment. This moment is all we have and I could have said it before, but I never understood it before.
Thank You, Thank You so much, K
David's Response:
Dear K,
Thank you very much for your email. It is extremely gratifying when one's words are appreciated and found useful. That particular essay means a lot to me, too. It took me a long time to get it through my head that the present moment is not mundane. I still struggle with it every day, but like many things, with practice it becomes more natural to "notice the moment" as it happens. You are very right to say that our life is amazing! That word has a different meaning post-Christianity, as there is no possibility of justifying the amazement by assigning it into an omnipotent God and thereby dismissing it. As Carlos Casteneda's don Juan once said, "We are men, and our lot is to learn and to be hurled into inconceivable worlds."
Thank you for visiting my site, and for your feedback. Write anytime.
Regards,
David
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002
Subject: Where was I?
You,re right! No xtian has been able to tell me where I was for 15 billion years before 1955...
David's Response:
Hi and thanks for writing!
Yes, indeed, it is remarkable that believers can claim the authority of the Bible because of its supposed age while ignoring the numerous older texts such as the Vedas and the Avesta and never giving a moment's logical thought to the condition or history of mankind as a species for millions of years on this planet. We often believe what we grew up with or want to believe rather than what is reasonable and rational. I've always maintained that tradition should be a result, not a cause.
Regards,
David
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002
Subject: Thank you
Hi David,
Just a short note to say thank you for your site. I will explore it more and more.
I am in the midst of this same change. I was a pastor for 26 years and then after much turmoil in both the church having problems with itself and my having problems with the church, they terminated me.
I also did not censor my reading and here I am. John Spong's Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism started it for me and in a personal letter, he said I would not survive and I didn't. I also believe that being dis illusioned is good, it is just very very painful. I have had to start all over, been divorced, on depression and anti anxiety meds and without a lot of friends to talk to. I found out there are thousands of aquaintances, but few friends thru the years.
At any rate, I have been having a bit of a down day and found your site. Thanks for your story and your efforts. They sound very familiar
D
David's Response:
Dear D,
Thank you so much for your letter. It is gratifying when someone finds my site to be of some value or help. I am certainly sorry that you have had difficult times in your paradigm shift. It is harder for some than for others, and having the investment of a pastoral career has to represent the most pressure to overcome. I can only say that for me, at least, the pursuit of what is true is worth the struggle, even at great cost. There is a centering and peace that comes from discarding rationalizations and freeing the mind to consider all ideas and phenomena to see if they are true or not, and I believe that such a mental lifestyle will, at last, make us truly human. It can, however, be a lonely path - even with a few others around, it is going to be a minority stance. Most people, in the words of Bertrand Russell, would rather die than think. Nevertheless, I and many others are out here, especially accessible via the wonder of the internet.
Please do read the other essays and the poems and things on my site, and let me know how they strike you. As a former pastor especially, I would value your feedback.
As for how you are coping with all this, I would like to tell you that pain may be inevitible, but suffering is optional. That thought is from my wife, who happens to be one of the best personal life coaches in the world. If you think you might find that idea appealing, check our her site at www.coachadvocate.com and give her a call. She is really good at helping folks make life transitions that enable and enoble them, rather than defeat them and beat them.
Again, thank you for writing. I do hope you will find not only great value in disillusionment in the dogmatic religion of old, but more importantly find the very real and powerful JOY of disillusionment that is a true reward right here and now. Nothing is better than real freedom.
Best wishes and regards, and write anytime.
David
Hi David....Thanks for your reply. It is difficult, or it is not depending on how I am doing on any particular day it seems. I have "given up" trying to understand the why's. It just is evidently.
Will continue to stay with your site. Thanks again...
D
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002
Subject: Fellow Ex-Christian
Hello David,
I greatly enjoyed, and related to, your website. I am 35 years old, happily married for 15+ years, and am raising 4 children with my beautiful wife. Recently, our Methodist Church put my poor wife through the wringer, all stemming from a conversation my wife had with a teenager during Sunday School. The whole thing was blown way out of proportion, and to make a long story short, a meeting we had with our Pastor and the family of the teenager resulted in them kicking my wife out of the class. This got the wheels turning in my head.
I, like you, started out with the noble notion of being a "good Christian." However, in the back of my mind, I've always doubted several of the tales in the bible, and always wondered if, when we died, what if that was it? Nothing else afterwards? When one considers the crazy and preposterous logistics of Heaven, the whole idea seems even more ridiculous. My quandry is this: I told my wife last night that I was seriously coming to the point of not believing in God, nor Christianity, nor the Church. Being "close to God" is VERY important to my wife, and she, unfortunately, willingly accepts most of the precepts of the Christian "faith." Things she can't explain she ascribes to "having faith." Now, after my confession, she is afraid for our marriage and the spiritual health of our family. I have tried to assure her that just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't believe in morality and common sense. I think we all know the difference between right and wrong.
David, how have you dealt with the difficulties in telling loved ones of your newfound freedom from Christianity? How does one go about raising kids in a situation such as this? I will tell you that my 10-year old son is as critical and skeptical as myself, and I've already told him to think what he wants but keep it to himself. Is that hypocritical of me? I realize we (you and me) are perfect strangers, but I felt like I knew you after reading your story.
What do you think?
Thank you for your time.
DM
On the Road to Freethinking....
David's Response:
Dear DM,
Thank you so much for writing. I truly appreciate hearing from those who find my site and my story of interest or of help. Please forgive my slowness in responding, but I wanted to give you a thoughtful answer.
I have to disclaim first that I have not had to face the type of situation you find yourself in now, and even now some of my family members still do not know fully how far I have travelled. I have been very fortunate to have a spouse who has been on a nearly parallel path to mine, and who is fully supportive of my philosophies and, in fact, helps me to question and redefine things. Much of what I will say in this letter comes from Melanie's wisdom, and you might want to know that she is one of the best personal Life Coaches in the world, [you can learn more about her and life coaching at www.coachadvocate.com] and she has been a successful family lawyer for 14 years.
Mostly what I can share with you is the experience I had and that of my wife's as well. We each came to our conclusions after much study and thought over the course of quite a few years. We were extremely fortunate to be, as I mentioned, parallel in our growth and beliefs and reached many of our conclusions independently but oddly enough, simultaneously. We were also fortunate that our step away from Christianity was not due to any particular incident or even any "ill feelings" but was more of an intellectual curiousity that grew deeper over 3-4 years of study. My wife's questions about faith and the Bible and what she'd been taught began quite early and so her transition was quite different from mine. But we shared a quest for TRUTH essentially -- by looking at the history of Christianity and of other faiths in the whole of history. I was serious, and still am, about deeply desiring to find out what is true, even if it is unpleasant or fearful, rather than remain possibly deceived by illusions that may be comforting, but are illusions none the less.
I am hesitant to recommend leaving your religious family traditions or even your expressed faith under your current circumstances, especially if your wife is not in the same place spiritually and you have recently experienced negative incidents. What I can unequivocally recommend is that you continue your quest for your own truth. That quest must be done in full integrity and with being sensitive to the needs of your family and friends. Declaring yourself athiest, agnostic, or other flavor of non-believer at this point in your life may only serve to shock your loved ones and not bring them to any further truth other than to distrust "the non-Christian among us".
Many folks confuse Spirituality with Religion. One can continue to be a very spiritual person, even maintain belief in a higher power or the Universe, without being religious at all. In fact, having a good sense of your own spirituality truly exceeds what most religions have to offer. Your wife may be equating your lack of belief with complete negativity, believing that outside of religion there exists no hope, no spirituality and no morality. Quite the opposite is true, or has been in our experience--thus the JOY of Disillusionment. Life is much richer when:
1--there is no entity to decide your fate or absolve you from responsibility for how you conduct your life
2--your connection to all humans is not dictated by rules created by a few people in power
3--your focus shifts to being aware of the absolute beauty of life here and now instead of focusing on the 'glories' of some heaven in an unknown future, possibly missing the real heaven of now, and actually experiencing life as something to "suffer through" until you presumably get your reward upon death.
4--you can learn to love and accept all faiths and philosophies as conduits through which people can gain their own clarity.
5--you are not constantly trying to match up circumstances with a rule or with someone else's opinion but are listening truly to your own heart, feelings and integrity to 'do the right thing'.
As far as being able to share this joy, I can only tell you of the community that my wife and I have found in others through talking with friends (more of whom were also questioning things than I had imagined), and through the magic of the internet that brings folks like us together when we are geographically dispersed and far apart.
Raising children outside of Christianity is not really that different than raising children within it. Can you develop a sense of gratitude, integrity and dignity in a child? Sure. Can you share lessons with them about handling life's circumstances? Sure. Can you allow a child to think for himself? Absolutely. There are many, many ways to establish and maintain spiritual health outside of Christianity. People throughout history and across many cultures have successfully done this. We just don't hear about that as much within the confines of Christianity. It may take some creativity on your part. It may take some reseaching of resources both for yourself and your son. It may take some discipline to make sure that some time is spent developing spiritually outside of visiting some building every week. There are a great many books and a great many people out there who are right where you are.
Others may and probably will never understand your position or philosophy that takes you outside of Christianity, but your wife and children must be consulted and included in your process, even if they don't agree with it. Some of the process in dealing with a bi-faith marriage are applicable here. You may wish to convey to your wife that you will respect her choices for her own spirituality as you work through your own journey. You may as parents want to decide if your son is mature enough to make some decisions for himself or to at least expose him to more than one way of thinking or one course to spiritual fulfillment. In any case, I can hope that your relationship is based on mutual respect as human beings and not just on some formal religious structure of expectations. If it is, you can agree to respect each other's journey as long as it is a journey of integrity, without expecting necessarily to agree with each other along the way. Being a whole person outside of religion requires a kind of integrity and lovingkindess that is far above what many religions espouse. It means not being attached to the 'rightness' of your own beliefs and allowing others to do what is right for them. It means being an example of all of the virtues that religions tell you cannot exist outside of their particular framework. Those walls and boundaries exist within the religious constraints and not in the freedom of freethinking, so it is always better not to mimic them.
DM, I really do wish the best for you in your situation. I hope that you can be cautious and reasonable and courteous in dealing with those who do not understand your position, but that you can be determined, tenacious, and thorough in your search for the real truth, welcoming all new information and ideas with a hearty hunger for what may be revealed next. That is part of the true joy of living.
Please write me again and let me know how you are doing as you move along this new path, ok? I and my wife are also still moving and learning and experiencing new things as we travel the new roads before us.
Best regards,
David
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002
Subject: touching base
Dear David,
Thought I would touch base with you again.
I had written to you earlier this year about how I chose to walk away from religion while I was living abroad. After I received your encouraging letter, I went to work for a temp agency. For a while ,I thought I would never get out of the depression. I was so low. I weeded out some religous friends who were draining me and knew I had done the right thing for me. I have never felt so free as I do now!
Currently, I landed a job that has been rated one of the bests businesses to be employed by in our county! I AM going in the right direction. Although, I am so very careful in making new friends. I am still healing.
I think leaving religion is worse than going through a divorce. When I went through a divorce, I had many friends and support systems. Leaving religion is a solitare move. Friends in the church have no understanding of the choices that I have made for my life.....I simply can not be around those who want to quote scriptures or pray for this "backslider". Friends "in the world" are happy for me, yet, they have not gone through this transformation themselves. I hope someday I will have new friends.....but I think it is going to take alot of time....
I have read some great books on Christianity from the "outside" world. They confirm what my spirit has been saying for a long time... The BIble Fraud by Bushby and The Christ Conspiracy by Asharya
For now, I feel, that the only one who can take care of me is myself.
Thanks for your website and kind words.
Sincerely,
JD
David's Response:
Dear JD,
Thank you for writing to me again. I am happy to hear about your job and the progress you've made in rearranging your social environment. I think your points about the solitaire nature of this experience are well made. It is something that those who have never believed can't really relate to and you are right about not having the type of support group that the divorce process has surrounding it. I guess being "deconverted" is something like one of those "orphan diseases" you hear about - not enough people contract them to make it worth society's time to take much notice of the victims' plight, much less offer money and resources to them. Divorce, unfortunately, has become so common in our society that all sorts of support is made available.
I have not read the two books you mentioned, but they sound like one's I'd like to read. I will look them up. Have you read the books by Freke and Gandy - The Jesus Mysteries, and Jesus and the Lost Goddess? These are quite good and enlightening works, too.
....
Nice to hear from you, JD, and continue to let me know how you're doing, ok?
Regards,
David
Wednesday, November 6, 2002
The many good internet sites of various organizations have helped me, but the one thing I lack is understanding, support, new friends (guess where all my old "friends" have gone...maybe they weren't really caring friends these christians), and to top it all off, I am in the midst of financial struggles, jobless and I have lost some relatives in past years. I certainly am tired of having "just faith, brother..." stuff.
Your poem and website is courageous and inspiring. But what If I cannot redefine myself in a society that says the poor and financially ruined don't matter. I need structure and social support, a new life, but am "distracted" by society's crass need of paying bills, commercialism and political correctness (on BOTH sides of the camp; gets tiring after a while...just give me a nice rainforest and a camping trip vacation!) in the evil northern ....
Well, thanks for listening and perhaps I can find some new friends, especially here in....
--- L
-------------------
the many believers at churches who never helped me or truly helped me solve real problems. Hugs and words may be nice (and I rarely got hugs, or EVEN INVITED into their homes....!!) but no deliverance or true sacrifices being made for their beleifs or friendship to me...although I had done it for them. I guess I sound arrogant.
I am still reading your great articles and they are helping me. You said something, something about "void". I now feel a void that I am DESPERATE to fill. I don't want to be lonely or have pity parties. I want to have courage like you and go forward. Bitterness never helps anyone, but encouragement and a listening ear are a soft, refreshing wind.
I should have made this decision long ago.
--- L
David's Response:
Dear L,
I appreciate your emails, and I sympathize with your reactions to this major change of perspective. It can be huge and can truly set you on your back end for a while. Sorry to hear about your present practical disadvantages, but I think the important thing is that you have begun to make this big shift in thinking and that really does change everything! The religions of the world are not really about truthseeking and lovingkindness, but are about power and fear and control, even when they are clothed in niceties and comforts. You seem to have found that out when your former "brothers and sisters" simply dumped you at the first sign of you being different from them and their beliefs, yes?
That happened to me, too, when I first started espousing a variant interpretation of Christianity (much less upon abandoning the "faith"). Those who were so kind, so caring, simply froze up and would have nothing to do with someone who didn't fit their mold. These are people who are either petrified of anything that challenges them, too busy with their goings-on to be bothered by involving themselves in the needs or ideas of others, or who have decided to be petty, drawing tight the boundaries of their exclusive club and getting some kind of satisfaction out of policing it for those who do and do not "belong."
I am gratified to hear that some of my articles and poems have been helpful to you. You asked, "What if I can't redefine myself?" My answer is that you already have begun to do so, and you cannot stop redefining yourself now, even if you wanted to! (And you don't want to, do you?) When we step outside of the restrictive box of religion, it is something akin to the butterfly coming out of its cocoon. We must surely be disoriented at first, and uncertain of this alien world and our new and unexpected wings and form, but we can't go back - only forward, and so we go.
I have found only revived interest and joy in life after my paradigm shift, and I know that anyone else who breaks out and begins to freely think and live for themselves will, too. The Christians believe that they have a patent on the concept of Joy, but I know that real joy comes from using our total human being to live a full and wonderful life on this amazing planet. For me it is comprised of learning new things, and creating new things. That's my new motto: Learn and Create. There is so much to do and to know that I can't ever imagine a situation where I could be depressed and feeling that life is meaningless. I can get along, however, with less social contact than many folks, and I know that others need more direct and frequent social contact and networking. In any case, the loss of a family or family of friends because of a philosophical change can be devastating. There is only one way out of that hole, and that is to reinvent yourself as a friend-to-be and go in search of those whose attitudes and understandings about things are compatible with yours. Believe me, there are many such people to be found.
So how do you reinvent yourself that way? It may sound oversimplified, but it really is a matter of making a conscious decision to do so. If I should drive my car off into a ditch, I might sit there and fume about how crummy the world is, or I might say, "Well, this is a crummy situation. Now, let's see how we can get out and get fixed up and go on." My Mom always told me that the most important word in language is "attitude," and she was right. It is not only important, but is a power generating word, as it is from our attitudes that our actions proceed.
I don't mean to preach, but I fear a bit when I hear you lock on the word "void." My word of encouragement would be not to focus too much on that void. Respect it, understand the power of it, and use it to gain an important perspective, but begin to find and make your own structures to fill it. That is what it is all about, after all, filling the Void with human creativity and life. It is what we humans have been doing for tens of thousands of years.
Also, I might say again not to forget that there are MANY others out there in the real world and via cyberspace that share your views and situation. You are NOT alone. The chatter and propaganda of the religious world is loud and can seem to be the only voice, but do some reading and searching and you will find, as I did, that many more of the thinkers and movers of our world are NOT believers in religion. Many are or were quite vocal in their rationalism and it is helpful and refreshing to read their thoughts now that we are free from the restrictions of the church. I encourage you to find and study some of these great works.
I wish you the best of travels on a road that can be scary, rough, exciting, amazing, and very joyful. Write me again and let me know how it's going, ok? I hope some of this helps. Thanks again for reading my site and for writing.
Regards,
David
Wednesday, November 6, 2002
Re: thanks for the words of encouragement.
Yes! I will
reinvent myself, create and go forward.
I am evolving and am a person of value. I shall find joy and strenght again!
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002
Subject: hellohi,
i'm just curious to how you came to the realization that there is no God.
you can't prove there is no God and you can't prove that there is no eternal life after death.
creation in itself show there is a creator.
Jesus taught about the devil coming and stealing the word. make sure this isn't what happened to you.
M
David's Response:
Hi,
As I said on my site, I'm not really interested in debating the theist / atheist argument. That is being done quite well on other sites. My stance is rational - I believe only what can be scientifically demonstrated. If you would like to know how I came out of my belief structure, please read "My Journey" on my site, where I go into some detail.
Thanks for your interest.
David
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002
Subject: Immortality
I think the following words prove every conscious being is immortal, what do you think? Can you say it better? Can you express it as a calculus equation?
"It is impossible to be conscious of being unconscious"
In other words if you are conscious now, which you have to be to be reading this, you have always been conscious and always will be conscious because it is not possible to be conscious of being unconscious, or aware of the time between lives, or times when consciousness is not active in a given life form, due to death or brain injury. If consciousness is suspended as a result of physical death or injury time would stand still for you until your reborn in some form or conscious again. A billion years could pass and you wouldn't know it. Life, all life has to be never ending from it's own perspective, and that is the only perspective possible. Thus we are all immortal. True or false?
MD
David's Response:
MD,
I simply disagree with your "proof" statement. I can and I am conscious of being unconscious. It is the state I am in now when I consider my non-existence prior to my birth. Does that mean there is no possibility of "other lives" or a Jungian "collective unconsciousness"? No, it doesn't -- however, if I cannot perceive of myself as being part of those existences - if I cannot remember it, then it really does not matter to me now whether I am immortal or not. BTW, I have strong suspicions that there is a matrix of life as you suggest. I am by default a rationalist, now, however, and that means that I insist on real, empirical, scientific proof before I claim that something is PROVEN.
One cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that there are not aliens in my soup. There may very well be some in there (really!) but we cannot say that "since it cannot be proven that they do not exist", therefore they DO!
Regards, and thanks for writing,
David
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002
Subject: Hello from KJ
Hello Mr. Crews...
I really appreciate the tone of your site. I especially appreciated your article "Just Like a Divorce." That is a very accurate description and precisely the comparison I have used many times. I was in ministry, and deeply loved it, for about 20 years. I am 42 years old. I resigned from my church position in May of 2001. I was a very committed evangelical pastor and church leader. The last church I worked for had a membership of about 500 people - I led small groups and the men's ministry (a Promise Keepers type of group) As the "problems" of Christianity (especially historic Jesus studies)
gradually dawned on me, it was a season of creeping "terror" and profound sadness.
As you know, I am not exaggerating. It was, as you accurately put it, not just an academic process - but the loss of a "love." It was as though I had been in a relationship with an intimate lover and saw it gradually slipping away. It was a very painful process. And there is a real grief process that follows.
People who are not from a deeply religious background don't "get" this. But Christianity was an organizing principle for my whole life, a world view, the way I made sense out of life. Plus, as you said, I felt I had a warm loving RELATIONSHIP with God.
I am now in the process of re-constructing my life and spirituality. I don't think I'm (at least not yet) reaching the same re-construction you have - but "that's okay." I am meeting with a group of 3 other people who are also in a similar place of what I call "re-imagination." We have two "post-Christians," a Wican, and an Evangelical Christian who is recovering from an abusive church. Quite a mixed little bunch! It's an interesting and fun mix.
My reconstruction seems to be somewhere along the lines of the agnosticism, deism, humanism... spectrum! Marcus Borg, of the Jesus Seminar, has helped me approach a synthesis - I'm still growing and thinking... Kind of a post-critical Christian spirituality....?
Our little group is struggling to re-fashion an adult version of a healthy holistic spirituality that we can use - with integrity. Using "spirituality" is a very broad sense.
I look at much of what is happening as just a healthy stage of adult development. Life IS MADE UP OF a series of disillusionments. I think it's just the "cost" of continuing to grow, learn, and develop - with an open mind.
Do you know of any site for "Ex" Christian Ministers? It would be nice to dialogue with such folks.
Thanks again for your stuff!
KJ
David's
Response:
Hi KJ!
Thank you so much for emailing - that is a wonderful letter to receive!
I know there are a lot of ex-Christian sites out there that are angry, disparaging,
and pointedly unhelpful, surely due to the trauma of the paradigm shift that
we experience when leaving our religion. With my site, I want to show the
joyful and positive side of the process and also try to creatively analyze
some of the adjustments in living and thinking (and feeling) that we are experiencing.
I can identify very strongly with so much of what you said. The "creeping
terror and profound sadness" is spot on. That first jolt when you realize
that God may not be true is kind of like realizing that your car just went
over a cliff without you even knowing there was a cliff.
I am pleased to hear (and only a tiny bit jealous) that you have formed a
mutual support group there. That does sound like a good mix, and I love your
term, to come to a process of "re-imagination" for your lives. I
think that is exactly the right term and it is what we all must do - creatively
re-imagine ourselves into a new thing entirely. And won't we have a special
advantage, too, in that we have been through something that will help us to
be selective and careful about our future search for what is true! What is
amazing to me now, is that I am so careful and scientifically skeptical while
at the same time unbound and unrestricted by any man's or society's philosophy.
We can examine all things and follow any lead to find truth. It's a tremendous
adventure.
Fortunately, for me, I do have sympathetic friends and, most singularly, a
fantastic wife who is on a parallel path with mine. I have heard from several
people who are not so lucky and have spouses and family members who are shocked
and hurt by the fact that their loved one has "left the faith".
That can be very hard to deal with.
As for spirituality, my first default reaction after my "deconversion"
was toward simple rationalism and a mechanistic view of the universe, but
now I have been looking into the effects of the very oldest of all human religions
- shamanism - to try to make sense of what seems to be a universal human experience,
that of the spirit or of the numinous collective consciousness. It has led
me on into some interesting areas of research involving the roots of mysticism,
meditation, and the use of entheogens (psychoactive plants) in traditional
societies. Fascinating stuff, especially when it begins to cross-connect with
science and the mysteries of genetics and DNA.
Sorry, I don't know of a website for ex-Ministers, per se. There is Dan Barker,
a well-known minister who left and wrote a book. Steve Locks, owner of a UK
site ( http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html ), said this about
him:
> If you are an ex-minister then you may wish to email Dan Barker at the
Freedom
> From Religion Foundation Inc. Dan is currently engaged in writing a book
about
> former clergy who are now unbelievers. He is also an ex-minister and
> ex-missionary who has written a popular book about his deconversion (excerpts
> are available). I wrote to him in December 1999 to enquire about the
progress
> of this and to maybe give him some more leads. He replied that he has
over 20
> stories so far, and is hoping to get a few more. The ones he has represent
a
> wide cross section of belief: Baptist, Roman Catholic priest, Seventh
Day
> Adventist, Pentecostal, Episcopal, Church of Christ, and so on. Dan may
well
> be interested in your story of why you are an ex-Christian and ex-member
of
> the clergy.
....
Well, I wish you great joy and much learning in your pursuit of a new way
of life. It may not be nicely structured like the "old time religion",
but it sure is better to have the blinders off and nothing but empty sky between
us and the universe to impede our progress. Thanks again for writing, and
please do so anytime. Let me know what your group comes up with in terms of
spirituality, ok?
Regards,
David
David...
Thanks for your rapid response!
As I read in more of your site - I noticed you come from a Church of Christ background - I went to David Lipscomb University for my undergrad! And, my journey began in hyper-right-wing Churches of Christ (very cultic).
Small world...
....
Are you familiar with Fowler's book Stages of Faith ? May possibly be helpful??? He defines "faith" more as the human process of "meaning making" which is somewhat related to what we seem to be talking about...
I have "spiritual" drives and impulses but also have my rational mind - thus working on my synthesis. And wondering if I can work with a post-critical version of Christianity...
So much of me was formed in and shaped by Christendom - - I'm wondering if I can "morph" a form that will work for me!
I also appreciate your choice of Shamanism. Ancient more "natural" / "earthy" forms of spirituality also have a great appeal to me. Much simpler and maybe closer to primal spirituality...? I am also "intuitively" drawn to some of these...
thanks for the "Barker" and other links...
good luck in your process also!
I will try to give you updates on my little experimental group...
KJ.
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002
Subject: Continuing Conversation...David:
Thought you might find these interesting...
http://wwwstaff.murdoch.edu.au/~loader/DearKim.htm
www.westarinstitute.org/Periodicals/4R_Articles/Borg_bio/borg_bio.html
http://tcpc.savvy.net/resources/articles/revisioning_christianity.htm
Maybe not!
(Please be aware that I DO NOT have some hidden evangelistic agenda! I am sharing with you my process.)
It is challenging for me to find materials that communicate to me as a "post-critical" Christian that do not seem "angry" or "have an axe to grind." (That's one thing I appreciate about your site.) What do you think about Marcus Borg? You may be WAY beyond or have "ruled out" that type of synthesis.
I am trying to find a way to remain associated with my Judeo/Christian roots - and I am very aware of the "choice" involved in this - and the other very valid CHOICES to be made. I know that one of my "drives" is that I am trying to figure out IF I CAN integrate and come up with a synthesis that will allow me to remain in and use 20 years of ministry career (in some form!) and about 10 years of higher education in Christianity / Theology. For now our little group here in .... is discussing the "Dear Kim" letters on the site mentioned above. I'd like to hear your impressions re the "What About God" letter in that series...
How's your "process" coming along?
Your friend in ....,
KJ
David's Response:
Dear KJ,
Thank you for writing and for sending these links. I haven’t had time to study them in detail, but I did read several of the main sections and kind of skimmed some of the rest of it. I realize you aren’t evangelizing, and I am interested in how others are approaching the post-Christian process. Not everyone will end up in the same place, or desire to attain the same results, but I think it is useful to analyze how different ones of us have travelled, where we have come to, and why.
Bill Loader wrote, “God might as well not exist, if God is only to be thought of as the one who started the ball rolling and then left it to its fate.” I must agree with that, except to take it to the obvious conclusion. I found Marcus Borg’s writings to be more interesting, especially since he seems to have had a truly mystical experience - an encounter with something he can only, in the end, relate to as God, and then place back into a tenuous Christian matrix.
Let’s suppose that aside from a hard-line rational/atheistic view of a mechanistic universe, there is something to the idea of a mystical, numinous, spiritual “effect” that we as humans can encounter. There is much evidence that such an effect is attainable and that some apprehension of a sense of an intelligent purpose at the center of life and the universe is real. As Borg notes, it crosses cultures, appearing as variations on the mystic, the holy man, and the shaman and even seems to be attainable by anyone willing to dedicate themselves to certain tried-and-true techniques such as meditation, entrainment activities such as drumming and chanting, and the like. (Borg did not explain the circumstances of his own attainment of the mystical experience, only saying that he did so.)
Allowing, then, that such experiences are more than mere fantasy or wishful thinking, some of us who have come to this understanding from leaving a Christian background will naturally desire to see if we can in some way reconcile it with the religious structure we grew up with (and that some of us spent years of our lives supporting and working within). Borg seems to have done so by detaching completely (to the point of atheism) and then reattaching to the Christian structure only ever so tenuously, seeing it as only one of many ways to approach the mystical “truth” that he perceived. It then becomes a structure of convenience - a matrix with which to apprehend and deal with this phenomena.
I do not find fault with this, knowing that he knows that the religious structure is a human construct, serving a practical and human purpose. Perhaps this is an appropriate course for you, should you still feel that need to attach to a Christian-flavored filter for dealing with these things. I found for myself that the Christian structure was too artificial, too new, too politicized to allow me to continue to adopt it in any useful way. I just cannot detach from the fact of its human designed nature, nor can I ignore all the loaded meanings, practices, beliefs, and prejudices that Christianity embodies in our culture.
Here is my take on Borg and the others. I can understand what they are trying to accomplish. They want to understand “God” or the mystical experiences in some manner that makes sense in relation to past experience and teachings, but to my mind it is as if they are moving to seek the truth, yet allowing themselves to settle for a view of truth through a particular tint of glasses. Perhaps the set or tint of glasses one views truth does not matter, really. A Buddhist looks at it one way and the Peruvian shaman looks at the same thing in another way. Borg and many others prefer to see it through a “Christian” filter.
In South America, there is an ancient shamanistic way of healing involving a powerful psychedelic potion called Ayahuasca. There are a couple of religious groups that have taken that tradition and filtered it or couched it in Christian terms. They have themselves experienced directly the mystical connection and have then found it useful to express it in Christian modalities.
For myself, I have read too much about the various human made systems to take any of them as anything BUT filters and practical/useful tools to be applied to the mystical experience. I am hardheadedly interested in “What Is True”, and that leads me to want DIRECT experiences that I can in some way measure or evaluate without an artificial filter set getting in my way. So far, the techniques of shamanism seem to be the most promising direction for my scientific exploration. I just can’t allow myself to drift off into a Christianized shadow of things when the real, visceral experience is certainly more primal and powerful than can be contained in that system of explanation, or, perhaps, any other man-devised system.
It seems somehow lazy of me to finally realize that there is a mystical experience and to then try to explain it away by reattaching the Biblical God to it. Importantly, the Bible itself is not a valid source in the search for what is true, so I am no longer interested in trying to rationalize it into the mix. Perhaps there must be some kind of language or matrix that we are compelled to use in this task, but for me, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Vedism, etc., etc., are all too new, too human to not be more in the way than helpful.
Some who leave Christianity never experience or perhaps wish to experience any such actual encounter with the mystical or numinous “over-mind”, but still seem to need to hold on to some vestiges of their old religious culture and life. My wife and I briefly explored the “Ethical Society” and attended several of their Sunday meetings. It was strange to see folks going through all the motions of and maintaining many of the trappings of a “church service” while maintaining a totally atheist/rationalist outlook. I had no problem with the atheism, rather it seemed strange to still hang on to the old forms and vestments of the church, as if these folks NEEDED them - needed the psychological support of such a ritual system similar to what nourished them as they grew up. We found it odd and somehow unsettling. Perhaps we did not need that so much ourselves, and we stopped going.
Another angle on this is that for those of us who invested ourselves seriously in ministry, teaching, and writing, such as you did and as I did with the book I spent years writing, there is a reluctance to seemingly toss aside all that investment in time and energy, and a reluctance to abandon the useful and honest skills and knowledge that we once brought to bear to help our fellow man. You mentioned that this was one of the things influencing you to try to find a rapprochement to Christianity or at least the Judeo/Christian roots or form of it. That may be a valid approach for you, but I might only suggest that you could look at things another way. The skills and knowledge you have are yours, and are not necessarily tied to the belief structure that has been abandoned. In other words, the useful skills can be recast in a new mode and be applied practically from another set of assumptions that might have nothing to do with the artificial construct of human religions.
This could be in the shape of a Humanist model, or perhaps a Shamanic or Gaian one. I don’t mean that we should all become silly, brainless New Age fanatics either, but simply that there are other modes of being in this world that also honor and need the skills of ministry, healing, teaching, and the increase of wisdom. Our people are hurting and the old pat systems of religion are not doing the job of providing real help or solace in this complex world of ours, in my opinion. In fact, the application of such ministry skills within the old forms may be causing those skills to be degraded or ineffective.
I think it is important for me, and perhaps for you and others who have such investments in Christianity, not to feel that all that was wasted and is of no use. I told one correspondent who asked me what I felt now about my Christian book that I was quite proud of that book, even though I could no longer take what I wrote as reflecting reality. Going through the process of learning and writing it has made me the critical thinker that I am now, and the backgrounding I acquired in history and culture has enriched me beyond measure. Those things make us who we are and will never have been wasted or fruitless, even if we go in completely new directions.
Well, I hope you don’t mind the long reply, but I wanted to give you a thoughtful answer to some of these things to the best of my ability. I hope you continue to share your points of view and process with me as it goes.
For now, I’m looking forward to four days off from my day job which has been hammering me with last minute work! We have some good ham and fixin’s to look forward to tomorrow [Thanksgiving], and I hope you and yours have a wonderful time off and time together as well. (Side thought: What do we do with the concept of “Thanksgiving” now??)
Best regards, KJ, and write whenever you can.
David
Hey David...
Really appreciate your long thoughtful e-mails. Meant to let you know that!
I have gone back to work after an extended leave. I work the evening shift in a psychiatric hospital. Profoundly stressful job - especially the weekends. My little "spiritual support group" is really filling a need in my life. I am very aware that it is mostly the sense of love, safety, and support from fellow human beings and not anything more lofty than that. I don't know much else in life (if anything) more important than relationships...
Hope you have a good day and week...
KJ.
Thursday, December 26, 2002
David,
I finally had a chance to look over your website. I appreciate your insight. We have shared a very similar experience.
I agree that life without God is like going through a divorce at first. It can be quite a shock to realize he is not there.
From childhood I had been told to confess sins as soon as they happened, and so I would walk around repeating "Dear God, Please forgive me" in my mind many times a day. Even after I came to realize there is no personal God looking over my shoulder, I still found myself repeating that phrase without thinking about it when I made a mistake. And I have to chuckle and wonder who I think I am talking to.
I'm still in the process of telling my family. My story is all out on the web for everyone to see, but of course, my family never frequent these parts of the web. I keep thinking I need to send out a blanket email telling everyone about the site, but haven't done it yet.
I hope you have a happy new year. I'll try to stop by your site occasionally to keep up-to-date with your journey.
Regards,
M
Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2 3
Correspondence from 2003 - Page: 1 2 3 4
Correspondence from 2004 - Page: 1
The
present moment is not mundane. It is, in essence, extraordinary.
-DC
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