Correspondence from 2002 - Page: 1 2(begins below) 3

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Correspondence from 2002

Page: 2

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002
Subject: website

Dear Mr. Crews---

I read through your website and found it very interesting. I hope you won't delete my letter right away. I am a believer, but am fascinated by those who say they are "ex-christians". I find it fascinating because the concept of believeing and then not believing seems impossible to me. I know that I once believed in Santa Claus and then accepted that he was a fairy tale. But what makes it so impossible to "not" believe in God is the answers that have actually come from prayers. 2 of the answers were so clear that when I think of not believing I feel it would be impossible unless I completely blocked those events from my mind and stubbornly refused to acknowledge that they had happened. I've tried not to believe in the past, when I was angry with God for some reason, like a stubborn child says "I don't love you any more!!" to their mother. But they don't really mean it because the love-bond is too great. the same has happened to me. I cannot continue in my quest, because I remember who God is and what he has done for me. I just wanted to share that with you, because you speak of "divorcing" God---but are you sure that God has "divorced" you? Thanks for listening.

J

David's Response:

Hi J,
Thanks for writing. I never mind having a discussion with people who are interested in reasoning and finding out things. The things you say and your interest in learning about people who have been through the "deconversion" process is indicitave of someone who is willing to consider and listen to differing viewpoints.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no one can gainsay anyone else who claims to have had a personal "mystical" or "miraculous" experience. I was raised in a sect of Christianity that did not acknowledge spiritual gifts or powers in today's world, and I often had to listen to others tell me, "but I saw it," or, "this happened to me and I know it was real" when relating such things as healings or life events that seemed a specific answer to specific prayers. I don't know what your experience was, but regardless, I would never be able to say to you that you should not acknowledge it as real. What I might suggest is that when those of us who were raised in a Christian culture do experience those kinds of things, we immediately and automatically interpret them in the context of the Christian worldview - that is, "Jehovah/Abba Father God, or Jesus, listened to my prayer and answered it in this way." What dawned on me in my reconsideration of religion is that we have no way to justify imposing our Christian view on such mystical events with any more authority than the Hindus or the Zoarastrians, or the curanderos and shamans of Brazil or Siberia have to impose their views. The fact is, we humans do not know who or what or how these things happen, but if I believe in the Christian God, I will naturally and perhaps emphatically interpret it in that way.

For me, aside from personal "mystical" or subjective experiences that cannot be scientifically proven or explained, there is simply no other empirical evidence for the existence of the kind of God portrayed in the Judeo/Christian scriptures. That vision of God is not even self-consistent and much wrangling has been done over the years by many thousands of believers, myself emphatically included, to try to get the biblical God to be consistent and to make religious sense. The only way I could do it was to make God and his dealings with us be completely "spiritual" and not to allow him to have interaction with us in this physical world (thus alleviating the problem of no empirical evidence for his existence). That view can work as a way of interpreting the Bible (and clears up a lot of questions about things like Revelation, btw), but essentially leaves one with nothing to "hang one's hat upon".

The idea of the stubborn child saying "I don't love you!" when he really does, is not the same kind of manifestation of disbelief that occurs for "ex-Christians". It's straining the analogy, perhaps, but it would be like the child suddenly finding out that his Mom and Dad were not actually real people, but were projected holograms and that he was being raised in a constructed world whose makers and operators were completely unknown and at least so far, unknowable. That is more what it was like for me -- God is seen to be a construct planted in my mind by the human society I was raised in and reinforced by "sacred" documents that seemed untouchable in their authority. Now, I realize that that document is not original and not nearly as old as other documents from which it obviously borrowed, and that the view of God presented is only the latest in a long panoply of such gods. Also, many of the fundamental concepts that we consider original to Christianity are simply not.

You asked if I was sure God has really divorced me. The way I addressed that issue in the essay is, of course, an analogy or figure of speech. It only feels like a divorce, because it is as good as one to me, the human being. It is not actually a divorce, of course, because there was never a second party! It is actually more like the schizophrenic who begins to understand that a person he sees and talks to is not a real person, but only someone he has created in his mind. That manifestation, though, has been so powerfully projected, that he cannot distinguish it from a real person. Now, I can make that distinction, and once made, it is no longer possible to take that person (God in this case) seriously as I once did.

Does that mean I discount all possibilities for God or a God or Gods to exist? No, but when one is burned at the stove, one becomes much more cautious. I demand real, empirical proof for such an extraordinary claim. No such proofs have ever, in all the history of humankind, been forthcoming, and I do not intend to hold my breath for one now, but I shall keep an open mind to all new ideas and experiences along the way.

Well, I hope that was not too long an answer to your questions and comments, and I hope you will find it useful in some way. I will never tell or advise anyone to believe or not to believe. My only passion is for what is true, and I will pursue what is true even if it leads me into frightening places (and it has at times). If your passion for what is true outweighs your passion to believe at any cost, you may also find yourself on the path to jarring, upsetting, vastly enlightening, outrageously joyous, and fulfilling knowledge. I wish you well.

Regards,
David Crews

Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002
Subject: re[2]: website

David----
Thank you for your very friendly response to my query concerning your
"deconversion". It appears you have put a lot of thought into your de-
cision, rather than a "knee-jerk" reaction to some negative happening in
your life. I have found that many atheists, when the intellectual cover is
lowered, really have some anger issue at the bottom of their decision to
not believe in God. I don't blame them though, losing someone close to you
could cause one to say "There cannot be a God, and even if there was one
I would hate him". I have also noticed that many atheists will say they don't
believe in God because of some horrible thing that happened to them at the
hands of "believers". I can understand this too, but I usually try to point out
that you can't call FORD a horrible automoblie just because some Ford sales-
man turned you off. Believers CAN be horrible people. I lived in a strict "cult-
like" group of Christians, filled with legalism and hypocrisy and went through
a small Hell on earth due to the experiences there. But once I left that group,
I again realized that they didn't represent God--that God was someone entirely
different. I had let men "representing" God literally run my life for 4 years. But this
did not make me disbelieve, it simply opened up my eyes and made me better
realize how God deals with each of us as "individuals", not corporate groups of
people under some authoritative structure. I wanted to mention to you too that
the answers to prayers I spoke of were not necessarily miracles that happened
in one moment of time, but were answers that came over time. They were things
that I had yearned for and had prayed with real sincerity to the point of tears to
God. One day I looked back and had what I had prayed for and realized that God
had indeed answered my prayers, but not in the time period I had desired at the
time. I wanted it "now" and because it didn't happen "now" I thought he had not
heard or answered. I believe this happens to many people----they say "God does
not answers prayers, it's futile". But that is because they want to be God and answer
the prayers themselves, and in their way. I always remember Elijah in the Bible(I'll
try not to preach) when he saw God---it says that first there was lightning and thunder
and a tornado and massive noise but it was all followed by "a still small voice". I've
noticed in my life God works that way--the things that REALLY matter seem to come
about very quietly and in a way almost unoticeable. Sometimes I have to look and
remember how I had prayed for those things and they had indeed come to pass. I don't
mean to preach David, I guess I'm just expressing what I believe. I truly respect you
for being honest and open about your "deconversion" and the last thing I would
want to do is to condemn you. I'm glad you said you have left the door open to belief--
although I realize you want physical and empirical prrof of existence. All the best
to you and thanks for replying to my E-mail.

Sincerely, J

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002
Subject: Can we talk?

Dear David,

I have just discovered your website today. It is a difficult time in my life right now.

I lived in Israel for a few years and have returned to the states. I have had a less than hero's welcome.
When I was abroad, I felt I really came into who I am. I was so happy. I discovered all kinds of truths while in Jerusalem. However, none of them were favorable to Christianity or the basis of any religion. I saw how paganism is still such a part of christianity.

Whenever I tried to share the things I was learning with friends, (while overseas), I was cursed....my
church cut me off and Christian friends disowned me. Needless to say, I do not volunteer what I have
learned unless someone wants to know.

I feel so alone in my small town. I have very few friends here now. I have changed...but they have not.
Some days I am so very depressed and do not know how to rise above.

I took great sacrifice to live overseas. The experience gave me what the church would not or could not do - give me mature character in not judging others who do not believe as I did and to go beyond the boundaries of man made dogmas and doctrines. The is a wonder big life out there for anyone who takes the courageous step to find it.

SO - that was my homecoming, now what?
How do I live in the US without friends or "beliefs"?
I look forward to your comments.

sincerely,
JD

David's Response:

Dear JD,

Thank you for your heartfelt email. I know that the transition out of traditional Christian belief and society can be traumatic for many people, especially if one has been involved in a close "family" church whose members have no intention of changing with you when you decide to grow. I have been fortunate , in that I have removed myself from my former believer groups slowly over many years, even while still a believer. My Christian beliefs became so unconventional that I was ostracized even as a believer, but now, of couse, none of my former group would have any "fellowship" with me. That's ok, since I drifted naturally away from them.

Your situation seems more acute, as the change has come quickly and your believing friends are still there and still involved with your personal culture and emotional life. That's much harder, because it comes at you like an unexpected divorce. I won't belittle the pain of that situation or its impact. I will tell you that there is a better world on the other side of the tunnel. There are many, many who have been down this road as well, and who would welcome your friendship and honor your knowledge and attitudes toward knowledge. You said you are in a small town, and that poses problems for "in-person" friends, but now we have the internet, and I encourage you to continue to explore the amazing resources that are available for ex-believers and non-believers on the web. There are communities of people who have or are going through just what you have, and there are many informational resources, as well. I'll give you a link to begin with below, and be sure to check out my links page for more. The best solution for feeling depressed and alone is to find others with similar experience and outlook and talk to them! You won't be alone for long.

My difficult experience was not in leaving a family of people, but in leaving my beliefs themselves, and that is the focus of most of my web site. It sounds like you found that path to knowledge in Israel and were able to follow it well. I can understand how removing oneself from your religious and social surroundings and moving into a vastly different one like that could be a catalyst to understanding and pursuing truth. I, too, am aware and amazed at the proliferation of pagan elements and concepts in Christianity. The old "mystery schools" were never completely supressed, but, like much else, were taken in and recast in Christian form. Much of what Paul teaches in his letters is actually gnostic in nature, even though he has been "revised" to appear to be anti-gnostic, etc.

There is an old saying, that it "is lonely at the top." In some ways, that applies to those of us who have the courage and interest to pursue truth and find ourselves with fewer and fewer companions on that journey. Most drop away and leave you to your doings. You are correct in saying that those who really want to know are not common. Thanks to the internet, now, though, I think you will find that those of us who have ascended and found ourselves lonely can actually come into contact even though we are not close geographically. This is a powerful thing and has already begun to change the world in many unforseen ways. How do we live without our friends or beliefs? We make new friends and cultivate the power of the search for truth and knowledge. It is not the closing of a book, but the opening of a new, unrevealed library. The exhilaration of new knowledge and understandings and exuberance of life one has when one is really living in the present moment, is a way of living that is priceless. Depression and dissappointment cannot flourish under such joy and power!

I wish you the best in your journey, and feel free to write anytime.
----
Check out this forum, then post a message. I think you will find some very sympathetic folks there!
http://pub76.ezboard.com/finlakeshfrm6

Best regards,
David

David's Response:

Hi D,

Thanks for the email. Yeah, that's tough. I'm still trying to find the right way to tell certain members of my family who don't know my position fully. I am very fortunate to have a spouse who is parallel with me on this.

You may already be aware of it, but there is a pretty good article on the Am. Athiest site about "coming out" that you might want to read. Here's the link:

http://www.atheists.org/comingout/othercloset.html

Thanks again for writing - write anytime.

Regards,
David

Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002
Subject: thin barrier

Dear David,

I have to agree with you on many points. I think my desire for community is
the driving force behind wanting to find people of like mind. But really,
what's the difference between that desire and the desire of a religious
believer? I've come to the conclusion that the end result of belonging to a
religious community is driven by the strong desire to belong to something,
sometimes anything. Not that's there's anything wrong with that in itself,
but the results speak for themselves.

I enjoyed visiting your websites. You've obviously put a great deal of
effort into a wide variety of expression. In my former life I worked for
Apple Computer. I was part of the educational division that provided
computers for schools. It's amazing to see how people, like you, are using
these technology and how varied and powerful these technology really are. I
too hope technologies, that make it easier and easier to communicate the
creativity of the human spirit, makes a difference in our future. But I
agree there is a thin barrier between intellectualism and barbarism. I
doubt it's much more obvious than what's going on in our world today.

Thanks for your input on the publishing world. I have a stack of rejection
letters that emphasize your point.
....
It's weird because I realize I have still much more to learn. At twenty I
thought I knew so much. As I approach forty I realize that I know very
little at the same time know considerably more that I did before. It's a
strange and humbling feeling
.....

take care,
BB

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